"Teams must play a minimum of English players"

[BishopQuaker]

Just watching Sky Sports News and this old argument has come back again.

On Wednesday, Portsmouth played Arsenal and didn't field a single English player.

If we're ever going to win a major tournament we need to bring through English players.

I think a minimum of 3 or 4 English players need to be played per team.
Is that fair?

I know there's the London argument which says that there's many teams and lots of competition for players.
Quite frankly I don't give a s*** about London clubs. Personally I think there's far too many of them in one area.
Arsenal have been the worst culprits for years, as have Chelsea when it comes to fielding pretty much a completely foreign team.

I'm not saying we don't want foreign players, not at all I think they're brilliant, but there must be something put in place so English players get a chance in an English league.

When you look at Italy I'm pretty sure there's some teams in Serie A who field practically entirely Italian players. I'm fairly sure Germany had a minium of 3 players rule some time ago although that could be bollocks.

Anywho, I know we're bringing this up again so what do you think?
Yes to a minimum of 3/4 English players?

[cameron-darlo]

i'm all for that. its quite annoying to see teams full of foreigners and barely any english players.

[AndyPark]

But then again, Arsenal have never been a team for English players in recent years. When Theo Walcott is fit, he rarely plays. Arsene Wanker needs to sort it out now.

[BishopQuaker]

I really can't see Arsene doing anything to be honest.

He's one of the few managers I have absolutely no time for.

[Santino]

Theo Walcott is s***, that's why he's not a first team regular.

I would like to see a rule enforced though, something like a minimum of 4 Englishmen in the starting eleven.

[DarloOnTheUp]

When Walcott is fit he IS a regular and he's a quality player. Andy - you really do talk some shite.

[DarloOnTheUp]

Also, when English players are actually good enough, they surface and make it into the first team regardless of how many foreigners are in the side. You're all assuming that they aren't getting in simply because of the foreign players. This isn't true; if they were good enough then Arsene wouldn't need to find players from elsewhere. Jack Wilshere is a perfect example; he clearly has the potential and so will get his chance eventually. The whole thing stinks of "bloody immigrants coming over here and stealing our jobs" in my opinion, and the logic behind it has the same flaws.

[StevieMardenboro]

I honestly don't think having tonnes of foreigners in the premier league makes the English team worse. We have won one tournament in 66 and not really come anywhere close since - that isn't down to too many overseas players and we probably have as strong a squad now as we have had in my lifetime. It certainly isn't noticably worse at the moment.
The premiership is full of international class players. I don't see how this harms the national team - if anything it shows which English players can compete at that level.

Wenger is one of the few managers I like.

[AndyPark]

When Walcott is fit he IS a regular and he's a quality player. Andy - you really do talk some sh**e.

When Walcott he is not a regular, he is usually on the bench.

[ShrewsX]

I honestly don't think having tonnes of foreigners in the premier league makes the English team worse. We have won one tournament in 66 and not really come anywhere close since - that isn't down to too many overseas players and we probably have as strong a squad now as we have had in my lifetime. It certainly isn't noticably worse at the moment.
The premiership is full of international class players. I don't see how this harms the national team - if anything it shows which English players can compete at that level.

Wenger is one of the few managers I like.

It is noticably worse in one area... GOALKEEPING

Why is that i wonder? Maybe because there are very few English Goalkeepers playing regularly at premiership clubs, and routinely facing a world class strikeforce such as England needs. This is from a nation that used to bring forward good keepers.

It will not be long, before we are recruiting an English goalkeeper from the Championship.

Shrews

[DarloOnTheUp]

I honestly don't think having tonnes of foreigners in the premier league makes the English team worse. We have won one tournament in 66 and not really come anywhere close since - that isn't down to too many overseas players and we probably have as strong a squad now as we have had in my lifetime. It certainly isn't noticably worse at the moment.
The premiership is full of international class players. I don't see how this harms the national team - if anything it shows which English players can compete at that level.

Wenger is one of the few managers I like.

It is noticably worse in one area... GOALKEEPING

Why is that i wonder? Maybe because there are very few English Goalkeepers playing regularly at premiership clubs, and routinely facing a world class strikeforce such as England needs. This is from a nation that used to bring forward good keepers.

It will not be long, before we are recruiting an English goalkeeper from the Championship.

Shrews

Maybe that's because goalkeepers battle it out for one position so there are naturally less of them anyways? Also, your logic makes no sense. If a rule was enforced so that, say for instance, each squad had to have a certain amount of English players, then this wouldn't increase the amount of English goalkeepers as managers would still probably opt for the best possible (probably foreign) player they can buy in that position since only one man plays there in each first 11.

*Exhales*

The only solution to your apparent "problem" is to tell managers that their goalkeeper has to be English. And that isn't going to happen.

[ShrewsX]

I see what you are saying DOTU, but I am pointing out one area where our national team is significantly weaker than it has been in the past.

Yes, goalkeepers are fighting for one position, but this is partly my point. It highlights the fact, that less choice = a weaker side. If there are more English goalkeepers playing at the top level, we have more experience and more options to choose from. This is evident in goalkeepers more than any other position, but if you keep flooding the top flight with players from abroad, it will apply to other positions too.

Another factor I think we should consider is this... Look at how few English players are plying their trade abroad. Look at the Spanish side. They can pick from a strong domestic league, and a wide range of eligible players playing abroad as well.
There are very few English players playing in the Spanish, Italian or German leagues. So their pool of "top flight" players to choose from is so much bigger. Do you think English players are proving they can 'compete at that level'?

I am not sure that placing limits on home grown players is the answer or even legal. (I'm sure the EU Employment Courts would have issues) and it is certainly not the answer to the failings of our national league. But its simple fact that if you have less to choose from, you will have a worse overall squad, because you are limiting the chance of decent players to progress and experience the top level of the game.

Shrews

[ShrewsX]

To simplify the whole thing.

If you had to pick somebody to work for you... would you rather pick the best candidate from 3 eligible and experienced people, or 15 eligible and experienced people?

Foreign players are not evil, but saying that having loads of them doesn't affect the national squad is ridiculous.


Shrews

[DarloOnTheUp]

If anything it improves it. This is because:

1) English players are experiencing the abilities and skills of other nationalities without having to play in a different league. For instance, I'm sure Robinho's Brazilian flair will rub off on some of his English teammates, making them better players.
2) Competition for places is now greater, therefore players will push themselves harder in order to displace one of the many "foreigners" from the side.
3) Only the best of the best English players will emerge from the youth/reserve sides; the weaker players will end up where they belong i.e. the lower leagues. Thus, we will end up with some very strong players who are clearly good enough to compete against the top national sides.

Surely quality over quantity is what we want?

[ShrewsX]

If anything it improves it. This is because:

1) English players are experiencing the abilities and skills of other nationalities without having to play in a different league. For instance, I'm sure Robinho's Brazilian flair will rub off on some of his English teammates, making them better players.
2) Competition for places is now greater, therefore players will push themselves harder in order to displace one of the many "foreigners" from the side.
3) Only the best of the best English players will emerge from the youth/reserve sides; the weaker players will end up where they belong i.e. the lower leagues. Thus, we will end up with some very strong players who are clearly good enough to compete against the top national sides.

Surely quality over quantity is what we want?

1) I am not so sure. Agree to disagree.
2) Competition for places exists regardless of nationalities. I am sure that a player on the bench will always want to replace another player, regardless of nationality!
3) I am sure there are some players in the championship that could more than likely cut it as decent premiership players, but aren't getting the chance because foreigners are cheaper. There have been some woeful foreigners in the premiership. Massimo Taibi, Manchester Uniteds infamously s*** keeper. Jean-Alain Boumsong, Milton Nunez (at Sunderland)... are these REALLY better than anything our own country can produce?

Yes, we want quality over quantity, but having more eligible players will not stop the best English players coming through and developing. Having 30 eligible English midfielders playing at the top level in the premiership (or in Serie A, The Bundesliga, etc) will not stop the Gerrards, or the Terry's coming through.

Shrews

[DarloOnTheUp]

Yes, we want quality over quantity, but having more eligible players will not stop the best English players coming through and developing. Having 30 eligible English midfielders playing at the top level in the premiership (or in Serie A, The Bundesliga, etc) will not stop the Gerrards, or the Terry's coming through.

Shrews

Well of course it wouldn't stop them coming through. That wasn't my point. My point was that having lots of foreigners won't stop the best players coming through. If they're good enough then they will make it to the first team. Simple as that.

[StevieMardenboro]

"To simplify the whole thing.

If you had to pick somebody to work for you... would you rather pick the best candidate from 3 eligible and experienced people, or 15 eligible and experienced people?

Foreign players are not evil, but saying that having loads of them doesn't affect the national squad is ridiculous.

Shrews"

I don't understand the example you are using. But presumably if you think my original point is ridiculous and you think that the number of overseas players harms the national team then you are saying there are players on the fringes of the premier league or maybe in the championship who, if given the chance, would excel in the premier league and improve the English national side, but we are somehow missing out on them because they can't get enough top flight experience to develop into top class players?
I just don't think that's true. Players who aren't good enough to get a game in the premier league now surely wouldn't make an impact in a World Cup or European Championship?

Take a few examples of players who are have missed out because of foreigners . . Arsenal for example . . Steve Sidwell, David Bentley, Matthew Upson, Jermaine Pennant. They have all established themselves in the premier league to varying degrees because they are good enough, but have not made into the England side regularly because there are better players in those positions. I don't see how them not being good enough for Arsenal's first team makes England worse. The only thing a quota of home grown players would achieve is too artificially weaken the premier league not strengthen the national side.

Darlo on the Up makes another good point which you disagree with. Foreign players influence on domestic players ( although not sure I would use Robinho to make the point) You cannot tell me English players who trained with Cantona, Bergkamp, Zola, Juninho, Pires, Ronaldo, Henry etc etc haven't benefitted from it.

I just hope we win the World Cup this year to settle the argument.

[TeessideQuaker]

Also, when English players are actually good enough, they surface and make it into the first team regardless of how many foreigners are in the side. You're all assuming that they aren't getting in simply because of the foreign players. This isn't true; if they were good enough then Arsene wouldn't need to find players from elsewhere. Jack Wilshere is a perfect example; he clearly has the potential and so will get his chance eventually. The whole thing stinks of "bloody immigrants coming over here and stealing our jobs" in my opinion, and the logic behind it has the same flaws.

I think it's more to do with the fact that Arsene can find equally good foreign players for cheaper than he can English one's.

[BishopQuaker]

Arsene "I didn't see it" Wenger is a tit.

If we had to play 3 English players minimum he'd be in the s***.
I wouldn't be surprised if his frigging team talk at half time is in French!

[DarloOnTheUp]

Arsene "I didn't see it" Wenger is a tit.

If we had to play 3 English players minimum he'd be in the s***.
I wouldn't be surprised if his frigging team talk at half time is in French!

So? What's wrong with any of that? My guess is that you vote BNP and are constantly whinging about immigrants stealing your jobs. Which are yours by right, apparently. I mean come on, you were randomly born in this country! If that doesn't give you first dibs on jobs then I don't know what does.

[BishopQuaker]

Arsene "I didn't see it" Wenger is a tit.

If we had to play 3 English players minimum he'd be in the s***.
I wouldn't be surprised if his frigging team talk at half time is in French!

So? What's wrong with any of that? My guess is that you vote BNP and are constantly whinging about immigrants stealing your jobs. Which are yours by right, apparently. I mean come on, you were randomly born in this country! If that doesn't give you first dibs on jobs then I don't know what does.

Jesus H you've clearly:
a) Never met me
b) Never read any of my rants about The Daily Mail or the BNP.

Incidentally. I can dislike Wenger for being a miserable, blind tosspot without being racist or voting BNP.

You fool.

[Jazz Maverick]

(Rightly) thinking Wenger is a c*** = racist?!



Thats fucking disabled, even by this places standards.

[BishopQuaker]

(Rightly) thinking Wenger is a c*** = racist?!



Thats f***ing disabled, even by this places standards.

I'm glad someone else stepped in to point that out.

[DarloOnTheUp]

I obviously didn't mean he was a racist because of the line where he called Wenger a "tit". That WOULD be stupid. I was making an assumption, through use of hyperbole, based on all of his posts in this thread.

[BishopQuaker]

Well that just goes to show why you shouldn't make assumptions about people you've never met, let alone on the basis of one bloody thread on an internet message board.

[ShrewsX]

The reason I "agreed to disagree" with the influence of foreign players on English ones, is that I think its not a subject that you can categorically say is true of false.

Of course training alongside Cantona is going to have some influence, but you can't measure how much it really strengthens the national side. I'd argue that a decent english professional would be of bigger benefit to the national team if he was playing top flight football every week than if he was sat on the bench, but getting 'influenced' by the Frenchman who plays in his position.
Don't get me wrong, I am not totally against the foreigners in the premiership, they do bring a lot to the game, and we have seen some great players from abroad. But when English clubs, are scouting abroad for young foreign talent to develop, rather than scouting for our own talent to develop, I can't see it being great for the England teams of the future.

Shrews