Democracy under threat.

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QuakerPete
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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by QuakerPete » Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:16 am

joejaques wrote:
QuakerPete wrote:
joejaques wrote:And there was no dodgy data on the remain side?

Emergency Budget the week after a Leave vote as the prime example.

If you are going to quote dodgy data, at least quote both sides.

Also, I've still never heard remainer saying what will happen when those nations around the fringes start dropping out? Note I didn't say "get thrown out", as the EU would be terrified of pulling their own finger out of the hole in the crumbling dam. :roll:
You have to understand the difference between the illegal collection and illegal use of personal data collected from hundreds of thousands of people versus someone (Osborne) claiming something that didn’t actually happen.

Coincidentally, today Leave have been fined a further £120,000 by the Information Commissioner’s Office for just such a data breach involving insurance customers targeted over Brexit and vice versa.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-47087440

What makes you think that will happen? Any evidence? Why would any Remainer say that is going to happen if there’s no proof? Perhaps these countries all feel that in spite of the EU’s imperfections they prefer to be part of it?
Refusals to accept quotas of refugees, building their own fences in defiance of the EU
And you still believe all is sweetness & harmony?. Personally, when the roof falls in, I don't want to be round the table. I'd rather be at the end of the road & calling the emergency services. :roll:
So, no evidence then!
And no mention about Leave’s illegalities?
And when is anything “sweetness and light”, particularly in this country at the moment. Brexit isn’t finished on 29th March, that’s just the *easy* bit over with


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Darlo_Pete
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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Darlo_Pete » Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:34 am

As part of my job I see people in their homes and sometimes they are asked questions about Brexit. A lot of the people who voted to remain in the refendum are now saying that if there was another vote, they would vote to leave because a democratic vote has already taken place. I think if the anti Brexit people expect a second referendum to go their way, they will probably be very disappointed.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Ghost_Of_1883 » Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:05 pm

I didn't vote because I just couldn't make my mind up but certainly I would vote leave if a 2nd referendum was forced. I think you're right that some remainers would vote leave in order to uphold the original result, however - unfortunately many who voted leave in the referendum might not vote at all in a 2nd referendum because they might think "what's the point, my vote doesn't count anyway"

Apathy would see remain win.

Best out of 3 then?
TAFKAQ

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Darlo_Pete
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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Darlo_Pete » Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:13 pm

John Bercow seems to have thrown the cat amongst the pigeons after yesterdays announcement. I can't see how it will all end.
Last edited by Darlo_Pete on Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

EDJOHNS
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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:41 pm

Pete, I am virtually on my knees asking for a no deal leave.
I always wanted out as I believed the EU to be undemocratic and heavily loaded towards some countries to the detriment of others.
Anyone wishing to query my reasons for being desperate to escape now should simply read the treaty of Lisbon which starts to come into effect NEXT YEAR, not somewhere in the way off blue yonder.
Some may want to be a part of the United States of Europe. I don't.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by onewayup » Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:34 pm

Should have left day after the vote, THE EU have constantly raped our country of most of is wealth to its own gains,biggest contribution to help the Greek and Italian cash problems were from British government funds. Paying for other countries failures.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:55 pm

So they intend asking for 1 of 2 delays.
1 until June which will only be allowed if the PM can show a reason for the delay.
The second,(and people should keep in mind the FACT that the PM and most of the "Brexit team" voted to remain) runs until "The end" of next year.
By which time the treaty of Lisbon becomes law, and it becomes ILLEGAL for any member STATE not COUNTRY to try to leave.
Now maybe the fact we have started the process pre that date will allow it to continue,and I am no solicitor, but I see nowhere in there that allows this possibility as an exception.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:01 pm

Onewayup wrote, "Should have left day after the vote, THE EU have constantly raped our country of most of is wealth to its own gains,biggest contribution to help the Greek and Italian cash problems were from British government funds. Paying for other countries failures".
Not quite right, the original loans came straight from the Bundesbank. I do not have the latest figures to hand but the last time I checked Italy had "repaid" their loan 7 times over and Greece 6 times. Yet the "debt" of both goes up by nearly 5 million euro's per 30 seconds.
If the Germans were forced to pay the war reparations ordered in 1945, Greece for 1 would be a wealthy country with no debt left. They refuse to even discuss it.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by onewayup » Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:21 pm

Enough said, yes they have paid back several times over but it is still a fact that they were in negative equity and had to be rescued, the German issues will never be solved simply because they won't ever admit to their complicity in the atrocities of yesteryear.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:51 am

The reason the whole thing has wound up like this is because of the 2 totally divergent needs of those involved. Those with the upper hand,(Germany, France etc), are industrial countries and require a reasonably strong Euro. Such as Greece and Spain, Portugal etc are highly reliant on tourism and as we all know, we like to get as much euro for our £ as possible. The Greek government had the perfect option when not once but twice mandated to walk away. I am 100% sure that had they done so at very lease Spain, Portugal, Italy and Ireland would have done likewise.
(I accept that is very simplistic but to give full reasons for my views would take far too long). I strongly believe that having lost 2 wars with guns and bullets the Germans are winning WW3 with words and money.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by onewayup » Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:25 pm

You're right had they walked away, the EU would be no more, we should not be held to ransom by the EU. we should walk away from the bitterness, we will come back stronger from them making our own way in a fresh way.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:01 pm

People forget, we had to "give up" many of our natural markets in the commonwealth because we joined the EU. Many would love us back and there are also new markets in the ex Eastern block etc. We have a reputation for good quality. People will always want that.
If we use the Billions of to leave money as a back up we can thrive.
The thing many forget when saying we are playing with their future by leaving is that non of us voted to join in the first place. When we joined the common market we paid all sorts of "penalties" for being "late joiners". When the EU was formed the scare mongers said we would face the same again if we did not jump in from the start so it was a done deal by default.
I am now going to walk round for the next few days hoping the mp's still refuse the deal as is, so that no extension is given as per tonights news.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Darlo_Pete » Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:09 pm

Our local MP should abide by what her constituents voted in the referendum, people have long memories. She's too busy licking someone's ass, to worry or bother what her constituents think.

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Democracy under threat.

Post by QuakerPete » Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:45 pm

EDJOHNS wrote:Pete, I am virtually on my knees asking for a no deal leave.
I always wanted out as I believed the EU to be undemocratic and heavily loaded towards some countries to the detriment of others.
Anyone wishing to query my reasons for being desperate to escape now should simply read the treaty of Lisbon which starts to come into effect NEXT YEAR, not somewhere in the way off blue yonder.
Some may want to be a part of the United States of Europe. I don't.
The Lisbon Treaty was signed in 2007 and came into effect in 2009. What do you think is happening next year with it?
The UK has agreements for opt-outs of the Euro and Schengen which only the UK can revoke.
I’d also like to hear under what circumstances you believe the EU is undemocratic

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by QuakerPete » Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:54 pm

onewayup wrote:Should have left day after the vote, THE EU have constantly raped our country of most of is wealth to its own gains,biggest contribution to help the Greek and Italian cash problems were from British government funds. Paying for other countries failures.
The UK’s annual contributions to the EU are around £9b after our rebate and monies returned to us in grants are taken into account. The CBI (Confederation of British Industry) estimates that being part of the EU boosts our GDP by around 4-5% which is equivalent to around £62b-£78b per annum. Around £1 Trillion has already been moved from the financial sector to various parts of Europe to mitigate the effects of Brexit


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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by shawry » Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:58 am

QuakerPete wrote:
EDJOHNS wrote:Pete, I am virtually on my knees asking for a no deal leave.
I always wanted out as I believed the EU to be undemocratic and heavily loaded towards some countries to the detriment of others.
Anyone wishing to query my reasons for being desperate to escape now should simply read the treaty of Lisbon which starts to come into effect NEXT YEAR, not somewhere in the way off blue yonder.
Some may want to be a part of the United States of Europe. I don't.
The Lisbon Treaty was signed in 2007 and came into effect in 2009. What do you think is happening next year with it?
The UK has agreements for opt-outs of the Euro and Schengen which only the UK can revoke.
I’d also like to hear under what circumstances you believe the EU is undemocratic

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Theres a lot of this Lisbon treaty stuff being spouted at the moment it seems.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:46 am

Because parts of it have already come into force but the "nasty" bits were staggered and come into effect next year

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:19 am

Some problems don't have a solution - and Brexit is one of these. I'm sick to death of it now because it's dragged on too long.

Apparently at the time David Cameron instructed all his civil servants not to make any plans in regards to a leave vote, sort of like a football manager not making his team practice penalties before a cup final! The other thing he did that bugs me is promise to be prime minister no matter which way the vote went, a promise he broke straight away.

So, he should have had a plan, and guided us through it.

In my mind it's not so much the actual act of Brexit that is now the problem (I thought hard about my vote and voted for it) - it's the politicians and eurocrats all scheming and conniving to bring it down that is the problem.
EDJOHNS wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:46 am
Because parts of it have already come into force but the "nasty" bits were staggered and come into effect next year
Care to elaborate?
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

Tamworth matchday programme 26 Nov 2011

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by QuakerPete » Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:35 am

EDJOHNS wrote:Because parts of it have already come into force but the "nasty" bits were staggered and come into effect next year
If you’re referring to the long Facebook message listing things supposedly happening in 2020 and 2022, this has already been de-bunked as rubbish by Steve Peers, professor of EU law
https://twitter.com/stevepeers/status/1 ... 54784?s=21


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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:31 am

I think we've all had enough of "experts" Pete............

Snigger -
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

Tamworth matchday programme 26 Nov 2011

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by QuakerPete » Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:42 pm

theoriginalfatcat wrote:I think we've all had enough of "experts" Pete............

Snigger -
Yes, I understand the Leave campaign never rated them . . . so it’s slogans and soundbites for me from now on! I just need to *believe*!


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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by onewayup » Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:34 pm

I believe and still do that we should come out without a deal in place, the longer it takes the more remainers will think they have a chance to turn it round, come out now and stop giving remainers hope of a life line that just isn't there, the vote was to leave end of, democracy rules.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by QuakerPete » Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:01 pm

onewayup wrote:I believe and still do that we should come out without a deal in place, the longer it takes the more remainers will think they have a chance to turn it round, come out now and stop giving remainers hope of a life line that just isn't there, the vote was to leave end of, democracy rules.
Without a deal? Wow! Against all the political and financial advice flying around that it’ll be disastrous for the country and its people. Brave!
PS - Did you mean this kind of democracy?
https://www.thecanary.co/uk/analysis/20 ... legal/amp/


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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:50 pm

The saddest FACT in all this mess is that both sides are so entrenched neither is really ready to listen to the other because of the lies that have been spouted by BOTH sides, not just 1.
Thankfully I do not do Facebook witter, snapchat or any other of those so miss a lot of the claims.
The "Experts" I prefer to listen to are people who have actually fallen foul of the "top dogs" in this so called equality.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Darlo_Pete » Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:01 am

Well if there isn't any shift in entrenched views, we will end up with a hard brexit and that's a fact. As I've said before I voted to remain but in the unlikely event of a second referendum I'd vote to leave.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:48 am

Pete, can that in any way be worse than being half in and half out with no way of ending the mess. Also no vote on anything going on?
Yes bumping out with no deal will hurt initially, but I tell you what, and this is just 1 example, The Germans will be crapping themselves at losing our car imports. Once the initial "We don't like you and won't deal with you" becomes reality, they will quickly realise it hurts them more than us.
We have already been told by many of the commonwealth countries they will happily restart trading. We have "natural replacements" for our industry. Many of the EU countries don't.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Darlo_Pete » Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:56 am

No, I would only want a hard brexit if Theresa May's proposal is voted down for a third time, as seems likely. I think Labour's lack of direction will come back to haunt them. I feel that a deal is far more important to the EU than us and after initial problems we will thrive and prosper. The people have already given their opinion, politicians should respect that, especially from constituencies that voted to leave.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by QuakerPete » Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:31 am

EDJOHNS wrote:Pete, can that in any way be worse than being half in and half out with no way of ending the mess. Also no vote on anything going on?
Yes bumping out with no deal will hurt initially, but I tell you what, and this is just 1 example, The Germans will be crapping themselves at losing our car imports. Once the initial "We don't like you and won't deal with you" becomes reality, they will quickly realise it hurts them more than us.
We have already been told by many of the commonwealth countries they will happily restart trading. We have "natural replacements" for our industry. Many of the EU countries don't.
You’re making an extremely good case for remaining in the EU and having control over our destiny, but using a couple of fallacies in an attempt to prove otherwise.
UK exports to EU in 2017 (44%) at £269 billion; UK imports from EU (spread between 27 countries)(53%) £341 billion. The pain will hit UK hardest, but the 27 will continue to trade with each other seamlessly whilst we scrabble about for trade deals over the next few decades - just to get back to where we are now.
Any deal with EU as a “third country” is always and permanently going to be worse than being a member - that’s what membership is all about, perks and agreements, special rates, seamless movement of goods and people, etc. AND - with a big say in the direction of the EU.
To state the EU won’t trade with us is just plain rubbish but with No Deal / WTO we’ll suffer the tariffs and non-tariff regulations which will add costs to all trade areas, some of them huge.
Nissan exports 75% of its cars to EU - adding the 10% WTO tariff suddenly makes them (and Nissan) unattractive along with all our other car industries and their supply chains.
You’ve made a statement about Commonwealth countries being “natural replacements” - any evidence to back this up, that they can suddenly step in to replace what we’ve got with the EU?


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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by QuakerPete » Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:33 am

Darlo_Pete wrote:No, I would only want a hard brexit if Theresa May's proposal is voted down for a third time, as seems likely. I think Labour's lack of direction will come back to haunt them. I feel that a deal is far more important to the EU than us and after initial problems we will thrive and prosper. The people have already given their opinion, politicians should respect that, especially from constituencies that voted to leave.
Please explain how a Hard Brexit would be beneficial to the UK. Interested to see what the tangible positives are in this thinking.


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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Darlo_Pete » Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:55 am

Granted it will be tough in the short term, but in the medium to long term, the country will flourish. Europe will still want to trade with us, but we will now have the opportunity to do trade deals with numerous other countries. The prophets of doom if we leave in a hard brexit are vastly overstated. Make no mistake I wanted to remain in the EU when the referendum was held, but I believe in democracy and so we need to leave. If the referendum had voted to remain, how do you think the people that voted to remain would feel if the out campaign was asking for another vote, they'd be dead against it saying the people had already voted to remain. So deal with it like I've had to do and embrace change, you might be pleasantly surprised at the outcome.

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