Democracy under threat.

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lo36789
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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by lo36789 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:01 am

No. I believe that the majority of the population want us to leave the EU.

I simultaneously believe that a majority want us to have a free trade agreement with the EU with frictionless borders.

Basically believe that a leave with no deal goes against what the majority actually want or consensus.

This wasn’t helped as whilst you say Farage (who wasn’t actually part of the official leave campaign) said a few things the official line, and the one repeated in every single TV debate was that leaving the EU would maintain a free trade relationship and that this wouldn’t be the easiest thing ever was “project fear”.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by DarloOnTheUp » Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:26 am

You can't assert what the majority of the population wants or wanted. We voted to leave. Any assertions like yours above are guesswork at best. And that is the PM's current focus: try and get a better deal, but if not, prepare for no deal as leaving the EU is what the majority voted for. He even tried to ask the people what they want with a general election but that was rejected by Remainers.

I'll think you'll find as well that what's actually being talked about now is leaving without a withdrawal agreement. The debates you refer to in the referendum were talking about a trade agreement. Two different things.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by lo36789 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:16 pm

DarloOnTheUp wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:26 am
And that is the PM's current focus: try and get a better deal, but if not, prepare for no deal as leaving the EU is what the majority voted for. He even tried to ask the people what they want with a general election but that was rejected by Remainers.
Suppose depends who you believe the EU and Amber Rudd say that no time is being spent on an alternative deal...Boris and his insiders say they are.

I didn’t reject an election from what I remember you seem to be treating the actions of 200odd people as the action of 48% of the country which seems a bit extreme.

I think what you mean is “remain supporting MPs”

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by QuakerPete » Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:51 pm

A pretty sobering assessment of No Deal Brexit - the government’s 5-page summary (only) called Yellowhammer. They said it was Theresa May’s version, but it’s the same document with the heading changed from “base” assessment to “worst case”
Some part has been redacted, but the original leaked report to Sunday Times talks about petrol refineries closing followed by petrol shortages
Twitter thread -
https://twitter.com/peterjukes/status/1 ... 07040?s=21


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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by DarloOnTheUp » Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:59 pm

QuakerPete wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:51 pm
A pretty sobering assessment of No Deal Brexit - the government’s 5-page summary (only) called Yellowhammer. They said it was Theresa May’s version, but it’s the same document with the heading changed from “base” assessment to “worst case”
Some part has been redacted, but the original leaked report to Sunday Times talks about petrol refineries closing followed by petrol shortages
Twitter thread -
https://twitter.com/peterjukes/status/1 ... 07040?s=21


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Here we go with the hysterical fear-mongering again...

Yellowhammer isn't new. It's an old document put together by civil servants to identify possible worst-case risks and, here's the key part, solutions so that these risks don't happen.

Old document, written by civil servants, absolute worst-case, with the aim of creating solutions. Trust the Remainers to use this to whip up a storm though.

And I've heard people involved in the ports state that talks of shortages are nonsense anyways.

Move along, nothing to see here.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by lo36789 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:35 am

Oh that’s just project fear again - trying to convince people to vote for remain in the upcoming referendum...you know that document which was written and never due to be released to the public.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by DarloOnTheUp » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:48 am

lo36789 wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:35 am
Oh that’s just project fear again - trying to convince people to vote for remain in the upcoming referendum...you know that document which was written and never due to be released to the public.
"Project Fear" is the way it is disingenuously being used by the Remain side to whip up yet more hysteria.

And as explained in my post above, the hysteria can be dismissed pretty easily.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by DarloOnTheUp » Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:19 pm

Honestly man, at this stage I think we just need to leave without a withdrawal agreement (as mentioned previously, all that was discussed during the referendum was a trade agreement, not a withdrawal agreement, two different things) and crack on with the trade discussions; not just with the EU, but with the rest of the world. I'm happy for a general election to be called to (hopefully) decide matters once and for all but it has to be before 31 October. We can't keep kicking the can down the road. Democracy needs to be upheld.

This end-of-the-world nonsense is getting tiresome. What the hell has happened to the UK that we've apparently (according to Remainers, not that I believe them) become so bloody dependent on the EU? Why is that a good thing? And I find it sad that my fellow Brits are so willing and eager to give control of our country over to this higher body just because they claim it's easier, or that we can't function without the EU, or some other pathetic reason.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:25 pm

DarloOnTheUp wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:19 pm
Honestly man, at this stage I think we just need to leave without a withdrawal agreement (as mentioned previously, all that was discussed during the referendum was a trade agreement, not a withdrawal agreement, two different things) and crack on with the trade discussions; not just with the EU, but with the rest of the world. I'm happy for a general election to be called to (hopefully) decide matters once and for all but it has to be before 31 October. We can't keep kicking the can down the road. Democracy needs to be upheld.

This end-of-the-world nonsense is getting tiresome. What the hell has happened to the UK that we've apparently (according to Remainers, not that I believe them) become so bloody dependent on the EU? Why is that a good thing? And I find it sad that my fellow Brits are so willing and eager to give control of our country over to this higher body just because they claim it's easier, or that we can't function without the EU, or some other pathetic reason.
You have come very, very close to expressing my true feelings there. Whatever happened to GREAT Britain and the Bulldog spirit?

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by QuakerPete » Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:28 pm

DarloOnTheUp wrote:
QuakerPete wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:51 pm
A pretty sobering assessment of No Deal Brexit - the government’s 5-page summary (only) called Yellowhammer. They said it was Theresa May’s version, but it’s the same document with the heading changed from “base” assessment to “worst case”
Some part has been redacted, but the original leaked report to Sunday Times talks about petrol refineries closing followed by petrol shortages
Twitter thread -
https://twitter.com/peterjukes/status/1 ... 07040?s=21


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Here we go with the hysterical fear-mongering again...

Yellowhammer isn't new. It's an old document put together by civil servants to identify possible worst-case risks and, here's the key part, solutions so that these risks don't happen.

Old document, written by civil servants, absolute worst-case, with the aim of creating solutions. Trust the Remainers to use this to whip up a storm though.

And I've heard people involved in the ports state that talks of shortages are nonsense anyways.

Move along, nothing to see here.
You could have just put “Project Fear and some people in the ports said . . .” to save all that guff


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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by quakerfan » Sat Sep 14, 2019 3:04 pm

The Leave Campaign persuaded me to dislike unelected bureaucrats . Example of an unelected bureaucrat = Dominic Cummings .

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by QuakerPete » Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:39 pm

quakerfan wrote:The Leave Campaign persuaded me to dislike unelected bureaucrats . Example of an unelected bureaucrat = Dominic Cummings .
And I would add to him an unelected Prime Minister who appears to be a “stick short of a bundle” and has absolutely no mandate for No Deal, yet appears to be under the influence of the aforementioned Dominic Cummings who is still in contempt of Parliament


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Democracy under threat.

Post by Darlogramps » Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:22 pm

That’s the unelected Prime Minister who’s just asked on two occasions to hold a General Election. And on both occasions, Remainer MPs blocked those attempts, explicitly because of their positions on Brexit.

I personally believe all new, unelected PMs should mandatorily face a General Election within at most six months.

But there is a delicious irony in people who argue “democracy is an ongoing process” voting to reject a democratic election.

If you have such an issue with unelected leaders, I presume you disapprove of how Ursula Von Der Leyen came to be president-elect of the EU Commission (the most powerful position in the EU, arguably all of Europe given its influence). Via a series of corrupt, grubby backroom deals. Amazing how at a time of potential tumult, a member of the German cabinet gets installed in such a powerful position! Anyone would think Merkel is seeking influence and control.

It’s also interesting how the EU’s founder nations manage to carve up the big, influential positions between them. Bit of homework for people - have a look into how many EU Commission presidents have come from outside the EU’s six founder members. It’s fair to say they’re not keen on outsiders.

But the EU are all for democracy apparently - except for any position of any significance and power. Can’t have the public making the “wrong” decision now, can we?

And to demonstrate it’s not just the EU who dislike the public thinking for themselves, look at MPs like Sam Gyimah or Anna Soubry, vehemently pro-EU but happy to switch party without so much as a by-election. Luciana Berger for example has swapped parties/groupings four times in seven months. Why do her constituents not get a say on that?

Bit of a shame remainers are so quiet when it comes to commenting on their own democratic deficiencies.
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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by quakerfan » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:40 am

The Leave Campaign persuaded me to uphold traditional British values which I take to include integrity and honesty Example of a liar = Boris Johnson . Oh and by the way Darlogrumps both remainer and leaver MPs blocked the election attempts because their first priority is to stop no deal , there will be plenty wanting an election after that .

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by loan_star » Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:47 pm

quakerfan wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:40 am
The Leave Campaign persuaded me to uphold traditional British values which I take to include integrity and honesty Example of a liar = Boris Johnson . Oh and by the way Darlogrumps both remainer and leaver MPs blocked the election attempts because their first priority is to stop no deal , there will be plenty wanting an election after that .
They want to block no deal but they also blocked the only deal the EU wanted to give us, because we didn't have no deal as the back up option, due to the insistence of those same MPs.

I know me and gramps quite often disagree but that last post of his has it spot on.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Henley » Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:47 am

Lord Paddy will be turning in his grave . . .

https://twitter.com/guidofawkes/status/ ... 46241?s=21

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by QuakerPete » Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:59 pm

Darlogramps wrote:That’s the unelected Prime Minister who’s just asked on two occasions to hold a General Election. And on both occasions, Remainer MPs blocked those attempts, explicitly because of their positions on Brexit.

I personally believe all new, unelected PMs should mandatorily face a General Election within at most six months.

But there is a delicious irony in people who argue “democracy is an ongoing process” voting to reject a democratic election.

If you have such an issue with unelected leaders, I presume you disapprove of how Ursula Von Der Leyen came to be president-elect of the EU Commission (the most powerful position in the EU, arguably all of Europe given its influence). Via a series of corrupt, grubby backroom deals. Amazing how at a time of potential tumult, a member of the German cabinet gets installed in such a powerful position! Anyone would think Merkel is seeking influence and control.

It’s also interesting how the EU’s founder nations manage to carve up the big, influential positions between them. Bit of homework for people - have a look into how many EU Commission presidents have come from outside the EU’s six founder members. It’s fair to say they’re not keen on outsiders.

But the EU are all for democracy apparently - except for any position of any significance and power. Can’t have the public making the “wrong” decision now, can we?

And to demonstrate it’s not just the EU who dislike the public thinking for themselves, look at MPs like Sam Gyimah or Anna Soubry, vehemently pro-EU but happy to switch party without so much as a by-election. Luciana Berger for example has swapped parties/groupings four times in seven months. Why do her constituents not get a say on that?

Bit of a shame remainers are so quiet when it comes to commenting on their own democratic deficiencies.
And Johnson wants an election specifically on *his* position on Brexit - that’s politics. Fortunately, it’s no longer within the remit of the PM to demand an election when he feel it benefits him most - that’s within Parliament’s gift. I think they call it “taking back control”. You did want that control for Parliament and not the Executive, didn’t you? And as already indicated, it wasn’t just Remain MPs.

There’s no “potential” about the “tumult” - were in full tumult. And I doubt Merkel is bothered personally about influence and control as she’s not standing at the next German elections. Shame the Tories and the right-wing Press never bought into the concept of the EU, all that extra influence the UK could have had!

I would absolutely disapprove of any corrupt actions to elect Ursula Von Der Leyen - please post the evidence as soon as possible. By corrupt, did you mean things like illegal overspending during her campaign, or illegal data mining of hundreds of thousands of people’s data to target those people with unscrupulous and lying adverts, or elected even though criminal investigations into her are still on-going? That kind of corruption? How about some reciprocal disapproval?

And those grubby deals? Post away! By grubby, did you mean things like the proroguing of Parliament: “That goes against everything that those men who waded on to those beaches fought and died for and I will not have it” (Matt Hancock), but then rewarded with a Cabinet post? Along with the other new cabinet members who said proroguing Parliament was “trashing democracy” (Sajid Javid); or “I think it will be wrong for many reasons. I think it would not be true to the best traditions of British democracy”; “It’s certainly not something I would seek to do. I’m passionate about parliament democracy” (Andrea Leadsom). And the rest of the Cabinet - search their leadership pitches - excruciating! The lure of power too much for them? Those kinds of grubby deals?

I would agree that any MP who leaves their party for another should face an election within a specific period of time. However, as Sam Gyimah was turfed out of the Tory Party he, along with his colleagues, are quite entitled to choose their own direction without recourse to an election. His argument is the Tory Party has changed, not him. Frankly, there’s no way of countering that argument.


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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by quakerfan » Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:51 am

There is nothing new about MPs changing from one party to another , Winston Churchill did it and he carried on getting elected .

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:28 pm

No European army someone said up the post !!!!!

What is more worrying is that she, when talking reminds me so much of Hitler in her mannerisms and gets the same response as he did from the listening hordes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gHOA2y ... 4t8XH54O0c

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by lo36789 » Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:56 pm

Ever thought you might just be a bit anti-German?

Tbh her suggestion actually makes an awful lot of sense - surely armed forces has got to be up there with the biggest wastes of resource ever. I mean defence is a necessity because of potential offensive actors but why must ever nation seek to defend itself when we know there would be economies of scale.

That said as with anything the UK always had a veto so if she didn’t want to submit forces to a joint army she wouldn’t have to...the other nations could do it if they wanted though because EU membership wouldn’t stop them.

A “European Army” is an exclusive entity to the European Union.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:12 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:56 pm
Ever thought you might just be a bit anti-German?

Tbh her suggestion actually makes an awful lot of sense - surely armed forces has got to be up there with the biggest wastes of resource ever. I mean defence is a necessity because of potential offensive actors but why must ever nation seek to defend itself when we know there would be economies of scale.

That said as with anything the UK always had a veto so if she didn’t want to submit forces to a joint army she wouldn’t have to...the other nations could do it if they wanted though because EU membership wouldn’t stop them.

A “European Army” is an exclusive entity to the European Union.
Not at all "A little anti German"

I detest the arrogant warmongering bastards with a passion.

You keep believing in your "veto" but in the mean time, go check out how well the veto's worked after the treaty of Versailles.

But hey, it can't happen again because we are all "European" Get your head out of the sand.
Check out the German stance on immigrants. Every bugger else must take them, but not us.. (The pure Aryan race ring any bells?)
Check out the German economy that is on the verge of collapse even though they are propped up with money stolen from other nations who are already in a far worse position that they are.

What is the point? We are all good Europeans !!! Not while I have a breath left in my body.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by QuakerPete » Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:00 pm

EDJOHNS wrote:
lo36789 wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:56 pm
Ever thought you might just be a bit anti-German?

Tbh her suggestion actually makes an awful lot of sense - surely armed forces has got to be up there with the biggest wastes of resource ever. I mean defence is a necessity because of potential offensive actors but why must ever nation seek to defend itself when we know there would be economies of scale.

That said as with anything the UK always had a veto so if she didn’t want to submit forces to a joint army she wouldn’t have to...the other nations could do it if they wanted though because EU membership wouldn’t stop them.

A “European Army” is an exclusive entity to the European Union.
Not at all "A little anti German"

I detest the arrogant warmongering bastards with a passion.

You keep believing in your "veto" but in the mean time, go check out how well the veto's worked after the treaty of Versailles.

But hey, it can't happen again because we are all "European" Get your head out of the sand.
Check out the German stance on immigrants. Every bugger else must take them, but not us.. (The pure Aryan race ring any bells?)
Check out the German economy that is on the verge of collapse even though they are propped up with money stolen from other nations who are already in a far worse position that they are.

What is the point? We are all good Europeans !!! Not while I have a breath left in my body.
This post really does now explain a lot of things!


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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Vokuhila » Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:49 pm

Deary me, Edward - even Nige wouldn't go there.

I don't know where to start with that xenophobic Unsinn, so I'm not going to bother - what's the point? I've just had a telegram from the 1940s though wondering when you're coming back.
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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by quakerfan » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:09 am

I'm aghast , so much out of touch with the real world and so remote from the facts . It is indeed pointless to engage in debate but edjohns I can tell you I lived through Hitlers war , though young at the time , and modern day Germany is not remotely like the nazi regime we fought back then .

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by al_quaker » Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:55 am

EDJOHNS wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:12 pm
lo36789 wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:56 pm
Ever thought you might just be a bit anti-German?

Tbh her suggestion actually makes an awful lot of sense - surely armed forces has got to be up there with the biggest wastes of resource ever. I mean defence is a necessity because of potential offensive actors but why must ever nation seek to defend itself when we know there would be economies of scale.

That said as with anything the UK always had a veto so if she didn’t want to submit forces to a joint army she wouldn’t have to...the other nations could do it if they wanted though because EU membership wouldn’t stop them.

A “European Army” is an exclusive entity to the European Union.
Not at all "A little anti German"

I detest the arrogant warmongering bastards with a passion.

You keep believing in your "veto" but in the mean time, go check out how well the veto's worked after the treaty of Versailles.

But hey, it can't happen again because we are all "European" Get your head out of the sand.
Check out the German stance on immigrants. Every bugger else must take them, but not us.. (The pure Aryan race ring any bells?)
Check out the German economy that is on the verge of collapse even though they are propped up with money stolen from other nations who are already in a far worse position that they are.

What is the point? We are all good Europeans !!! Not while I have a breath left in my body.
Blimey

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:08 am

quakerfan wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:09 am
I'm aghast , so much out of touch with the real world and so remote from the facts . It is indeed pointless to engage in debate but edjohns I can tell you I lived through Hitlers war , though young at the time , and modern day Germany is not remotely like the nazi regime we fought back then .
"Modern day Germany" not like the Nazi's? Jesus Christ. Take your blinkers off. That post of Frau Merkle talking about an EU army was EXACTLY like the Nazi's times. Her mannerisms and the crowd held spellbound by her vision. Hitler came to power because of a deep recession. Germany are sliding into recession. Don't take my word for it read the figures.
Germany spoke their way into ruling Europe because no-one stood up to them until the UK said enough, which we are on the point of doing again. Have you not read the treats that have been coming our way for the last 3 years? Not that they will trow bombs, but that we will suffer because we won't be able to trade, verbal bombs that have been launched regularly for 3 years and people still don't get where the threats are coming from and why.

This really is nothing new. It goes back as far as Attila 406–453. They have not, and will not change

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Vokuhila » Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:08 am

Ah, yes, Attila the Hun, that very famous non-German.
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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:15 am

Vokuhila wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:08 am
Ah, yes, Attila the Hun, that very famous non-German.
Jesus Christ, learn to read. "Dates back to" should give the clue. Off the top of my head I could not think of the name Alaric I who lived slightly earlier but on the same overlapping time scale. Go check. The Huns invaded the lands of the Goths, (Visigoths), forced them South and they,(The Goths), invaded and sacked Rome in 408AD. If you Don't think the Goths warlike enough try the Franks who got going just a few years later.
Want to tell me either of those were not German?
Do you want a list of the wars people from those regions started from way prior to "Germany" being formed ?
They are, and always have been war-like people.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by al_quaker » Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:33 am

EDJOHNS wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:15 am

They are, and always have been war-like people.
Unlike us Brits of course, who have barely seen a war

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Vokuhila » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:22 pm

Apologies for any misinterpretation on my part, Ed - it just seemed as though you were suggesting he was somehow the root cause of all Germans' supposed predilection for warmongering.

Either way, I'm sure if you just opened your mind a bit you'd probably find that most Germans are actually alright.
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