Democracy under threat.

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DarloOnTheUp
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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by DarloOnTheUp » Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:11 am

QuakerPete wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:44 pm
DarloOnTheUp wrote:As I said, great, we're at an understanding: a trade agreement and a withdrawal agreement are two separate things.
And where the ditching of one will have a material effect on the other

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I'm sorry but no.

First you try and dishonestly (or mistakenly) conflate the two, saying things like "we were promised a great deal in the referendum". You even posted a video previously to prove your point. However, this is simply not true as what was discussed was a trade deal, not a withdrawal agreement. If you watch back the video you posted (with Nigel Farage) then it's clear he's talking about a trade deal.

Now you've changed your tune and are instead trying to conflate them in a different way.

The trade negotiations will begin once we've left either with or without a withdrawal agreement. If you want to discuss one or the other then you'll have to discuss them on their own terms. Trying to conflate or directly link them is misleading.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by quakerfan » Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:48 am

Let's think on this .............. where can you find people who disagree with judges ? 1. in any prison 2. Downing St.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by QuakerPete » Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:34 am

DarloOnTheUp wrote:
QuakerPete wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:44 pm
DarloOnTheUp wrote:As I said, great, we're at an understanding: a trade agreement and a withdrawal agreement are two separate things.
And where the ditching of one will have a material effect on the other

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'm sorry but no.

First you try and dishonestly (or mistakenly) conflate the two, saying things like "we were promised a great deal in the referendum". You even posted a video previously to prove your point. However, this is simply not true as what was discussed was a trade deal, not a withdrawal agreement. If you watch back the video you posted (with Nigel Farage) then it's clear he's talking about a trade deal.

Now you've changed your tune and are instead trying to conflate them in a different way.

The trade negotiations will begin once we've left either with or without a withdrawal agreement. If you want to discuss one or the other then you'll have to discuss them on their own terms. Trying to conflate or directly link them is misleading.
Nope, I’ve said that the WA and Trade Deal are linked - the EU say they are linked, not independent of each other.
The trade deal will not follow a No Deal as though somehow the EU will just waive the terms of the WA. The EU have consistently said that the 3 outstanding elements of the Withdrawal Agreement will still need to be settled before any trade deal is discussed, namely:
1. The balance of any monies outstanding from the £39b specified in the WA
2. Citizens Rights in the respective countries
3. The Northern Ireland Backstop
They are not going to proceed on trade before these issues are resolved satisfactorily, hence the links between the 2 elements.
The promise of “a Great Deal” stands and the mandate of No Deal is non-existent as it was not discussed or promoted until late 2018.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 1.html?amp


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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:13 am

Darlo_Pete wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:18 pm
Just been watching the debate from parliament for the last 2.75hrs or so, absolutely fascinating. I think Boris will steamroll Labour at the forthcoming election. The result will depend on how many Labour voters who voted leave, would vote for Conservative or Brexit if there is a pact between them at the election & how many Conservatives who voted remain, would vote for the Lib Dems.
Sad fact that the house of commons should now be added to your "What are you watching on TV" thread as it has become the most compulsive watching by far at this time

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by DarloOnTheUp » Thu Sep 26, 2019 7:49 pm

QuakerPete wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:34 am
Nope, I’ve said that the WA and Trade Deal are linked - the EU say they are linked, not independent of each other.
The trade deal will not follow a No Deal as though somehow the EU will just waive the terms of the WA. The EU have consistently said that the 3 outstanding elements of the Withdrawal Agreement will still need to be settled before any trade deal is discussed, namely:
1. The balance of any monies outstanding from the £39b specified in the WA
2. Citizens Rights in the respective countries
3. The Northern Ireland Backstop
They are not going to proceed on trade before these issues are resolved satisfactorily, hence the links between the 2 elements.
The promise of “a Great Deal” stands and the mandate of No Deal is non-existent as it was not discussed or promoted until late 2018.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 1.html?amp
1. EU playing hard-ball: OK in your book. UK playing hard-ball: not OK in your book. Can you not see what the EU are doing? They're threatening to walk away if we don't give them what they want. That's EXACTLY what Boris et al have been trying to do but they keep getting hamstrung by people who simply refuse to accept the 2016 result. So we end up in a catch-22 situation where we want a good deal, but we can't get a good deal because to get a good deal, we need to be genuinely willing to walk away with no deal (which Theresa May never was), but because certain people won't accept no deal (or even leaving at all), WE WILL NEVER GET A GOOD DEAL. Then they have the gall to turn around and say "look how bad this deal is, don't you really want to remain now? We told you it would be a bad deal. See, look, we told you", whilst at the same time hiding their blood-stained hands behind their backs.

This alone should be argument enough, why can you not see what's staring you right in the face?

2. Again, you're conflating issues. What was discussed during the referendum was a trade deal, not a withdrawal agreement. Hence any "promises" (as you put it) made were with regards to a trade deal. You therefore can't call these claims false until we've at least concluded the trade negotiations and fully left the EU. And of course the EU would say they won't negotiate any trade deal before those issues have been resolved: that's called clever negotiation tactics. If only we had a similar ace up our sleeves... Oh wait, we do.

3. There was more to the Leave vote than economics, and more to the economics than a deal with the EU. If the EU was nothing more than a trading bloc then this would be a different debate altogether.

4. The possibility of no deal (trade or otherwise) was public knowledge during the referendum, and WAS mentioned (I've already provided evidence). Also, if No Deal is on the table, which it must be to get a good deal, then it's always a possibility. Your claim that somehow people didn't know about or understand it is a rehash of "Leave voters didn't know what they voted for/were too thick to fully understand/were brainwashed into voting a certain way". But it's nothing more than guesswork. We voted to Leave, that's it. The information was there, so to claim one side or the other didn't have all the information is, as I said, guesswork. You could quite as easily say the same about Remain and all their Project Fear nonsense (being at the back of the queue in a deal with the US, anyone?)

Leave won the referendum in 2016, Theresa May was then voted in under the premise of "no deal is better than a bad deal", and the Brexit Party won considerably more MEP seats than any other party in the EU elections. Don't try and tell me people didn't know what they were voting for when that's 3 times (4 if you include David Cameron's initial promise of a referendum) that people have voted in favour of Brexit.

I love as well how Remainers say things like "well if you just change this, and change that, and throw that in, then wow, as if by magic, Leave didn't really win in 2016 afterall! How did that happen?"

5. Extending to stop No Deal was not mandated either, yet a general election is being refused until an extension is forced through, so you can shut your trap about bloody mandates, especially when what WAS mandated is to leave the EU.

The PM offered to hold a general election but no, democracy is only important when it suits your agenda.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Vokuhila » Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:09 pm

EDJOHNS wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:46 pm
I have not in my working life from the mid 60's to 2012 when I retired found one German I would like to go for a drink with.
I'm sure if Jürgen Klopp called and asked if you fancied sinking a couple of pilsners with him, you probably wouldn't say no.

Seriously though, it's obvious that your anti-German feelings run deep and there's more to the reasons behind them than meets the eye. As a person of a certain age I can't imagine they'll change much now either, but there'll always be people like Carl von Ossietzky and Sophie Scholl to prove you wrong. Incidentally, I'm reading A Life Too Short: The Tragedy of Robert Enke at the moment - no one could ever accuse him of being arrogant.

Anyways, back to Brexit...
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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by QuakerPete » Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:38 pm

DarloOnTheUp wrote:
QuakerPete wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:34 am
Nope, I’ve said that the WA and Trade Deal are linked - the EU say they are linked, not independent of each other.
The trade deal will not follow a No Deal as though somehow the EU will just waive the terms of the WA. The EU have consistently said that the 3 outstanding elements of the Withdrawal Agreement will still need to be settled before any trade deal is discussed, namely:
1. The balance of any monies outstanding from the £39b specified in the WA
2. Citizens Rights in the respective countries
3. The Northern Ireland Backstop
They are not going to proceed on trade before these issues are resolved satisfactorily, hence the links between the 2 elements.
The promise of “a Great Deal” stands and the mandate of No Deal is non-existent as it was not discussed or promoted until late 2018.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 1.html?amp
1. EU playing hard-ball: OK in your book. UK playing hard-ball: not OK in your book. Can you not see what the EU are doing? They're threatening to walk away if we don't give them what they want. That's EXACTLY what Boris et al have been trying to do but they keep getting hamstrung by people who simply refuse to accept the 2016 result. So we end up in a catch-22 situation where we want a good deal, but we can't get a good deal because to get a good deal, we need to be genuinely willing to walk away with no deal (which Theresa May never was), but because certain people won't accept no deal (or even leaving at all), WE WILL NEVER GET A GOOD DEAL. Then they have the gall to turn around and say "look how bad this deal is, don't you really want to remain now? We told you it would be a bad deal. See, look, we told you", whilst at the same time hiding their blood-stained hands behind their backs.

This alone should be argument enough, why can you not see what's staring you right in the face?

2. Again, you're conflating issues. What was discussed during the referendum was a trade deal, not a withdrawal agreement. Hence any "promises" (as you put it) made were with regards to a trade deal. You therefore can't call these claims false until we've at least concluded the trade negotiations and fully left the EU. And of course the EU would say they won't negotiate any trade deal before those issues have been resolved: that's called clever negotiation tactics. If only we had a similar ace up our sleeves... Oh wait, we do.

3. There was more to the Leave vote than economics, and more to the economics than a deal with the EU. If the EU was nothing more than a trading bloc then this would be a different debate altogether.

4. The possibility of no deal (trade or otherwise) was public knowledge during the referendum, and WAS mentioned (I've already provided evidence). Also, if No Deal is on the table, which it must be to get a good deal, then it's always a possibility. Your claim that somehow people didn't know about or understand it is a rehash of "Leave voters didn't know what they voted for/were too thick to fully understand/were brainwashed into voting a certain way". But it's nothing more than guesswork. We voted to Leave, that's it. The information was there, so to claim one side or the other didn't have all the information is, as I said, guesswork. You could quite as easily say the same about Remain and all their Project Fear nonsense (being at the back of the queue in a deal with the US, anyone?)

Leave won the referendum in 2016, Theresa May was then voted in under the premise of "no deal is better than a bad deal", and the Brexit Party won considerably more MEP seats than any other party in the EU elections. Don't try and tell me people didn't know what they were voting for when that's 3 times (4 if you include David Cameron's initial promise of a referendum) that people have voted in favour of Brexit.

I love as well how Remainers say things like "well if you just change this, and change that, and throw that in, then wow, as if by magic, Leave didn't really win in 2016 afterall! How did that happen?"

5. Extending to stop No Deal was not mandated either, yet a general election is being refused until an extension is forced through, so you can shut your trap about bloody mandates, especially when what WAS mandated is to leave the EU.

The PM offered to hold a general election but no, democracy is only important when it suits your agenda.
1. We hold all the cards? Or maybe the hand the UK held was always just a pair of 2s! Fancy the EU wanting the best terms for its remaining members, this mutually beneficial club idea will never catch on! And it’s still everyone else’s fault, I see, rather than that of the charlatans who proposed Brexit without any idea of a plan, which still holds true today.
I do see your desperation staring me right in the face
DEFINE A ‘GOOD DEAL’ PLEASE!!!

2. I can 100% guarantee you this with the trade negotiations, the UK will not get as good a deal or even better trading deal with the EU as it has now, whether it be through WTO terms or a trade deal later on. It’s that not-being-part-of-a-club-anymore so not having the full benefits of membership . I wouldn’t call that a “good deal”, it would be a Worse Deal to put it into its proper context. That’s not to say we won’t get a deal of sorts at some point.

3. Agree, there was more to the Leave vote than just economics . . . for some people

4. Now, you’re just destroying any credibility you had by making things up which I never said. I didn’t say people didn’t understand No Deal, I said it wasn’t in the mainstream public domain at the time of the 2016 referendum, as indicated by this Google Trends graph, the spike in interest came around late 2018 when various Leave individuals and organisations introduced it
[IMG]//uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201909 ... f64ac7.jpg[/IMG]
People can hardly vote for No Deal when May mentioned it *after* the referendum - no mandate!
Research the d’Hondt method of PR for the EU elections which heavily favours a single issue party (private and undemocratic company). The combined Remain vote did rather well and translates into a good number of seats. Isn’t Nige, sole member of the Brexit Party Ltd, buggering off to the USA after Brexit?
[IMG]//uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201909 ... 5e8e02.jpg[/IMG]

5. “Shut your trap”? I really do feel your angst now.
“The PM offered to hold a general election but no, democracy is only important when it suits your agenda.” That’s a real cracker to finish off with - welcome to the real world of politics


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Darlo_Pete
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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Darlo_Pete » Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:37 am

Looks like European Law is going to be used to negate British Law. Good old Europe coming to the defence of Brexit.

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Democracy under threat.

Post by Darlogramps » Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:32 am

The H’Dondt graph is massively flawed, to the point it makes it massively irrelevant.

Firstly, it splits the Leave vote, but keeps Remain as a single entity. And there are varying forms of “Remain”.

Jo Swinson’s Lib Dems have ensured that with their stance of revoking Article 50 under all circumstances. There’s also the Labour Remain view which is to campaign for another referendum, campaigning to Remain but accepting Leave if it wins.

Those are indisputably different forms of Remain yet that graph doesn’t reflect it. In this context, Remain only receiving 40% is actually a poor performance, while 35% for one specific Brexit position is fairly strong.

Secondly, it doesn’t explicitly have the Conservatives as being pro-Brexit, which is ludicrous and crushes the graph’s relevance. Yes there are Conservative members whose preference is to Remain, but the stated policy of the party is to leave the EU. It’s literally tried to do that for three years.

Bundling the Conservatives up with Labour, who are not an explicit pro-Brexit party (they’re not explicitly pro-anything really) is therefore deeply flawed. Labour’s position at the Euro Elections was a “soft” Brexit (customs union membership, single market access etc), before it shifted to its current “Negotiate a deal then have another referendum” policy.

And seemingly the only explicit pro-Brexit position, according to that graph, is hard (presumably no-deal) Brexit. Brexit gets one specific position in that graph, while Remain is under one all-encompassing umbrella. Hardly seems representative.

The graph also treats single nation parties (SNP, Plaid Cymru etc) the same as pan-UK parties, which comes with its own flaws. Especially as Northern Ireland parties (such as the pro-Brexit DUP have been ignored completely). Why do some single nation parties get included, but others do not? Makes no sense.

The D’Hondt graph also assumes voters are only voting on the issue of Brexit, which is not necessarily the case. Some voters could well just want to punish poor domestic performance of Labour and the Conservatives, so gave them a kicking at the Euro Elections.

No wonder it appears as though Remain did well, given the producers of the graph have fiddled the figures. If I put Leave altogether, then split Remain into Revoke and Additional Referendum, I could fiddle the figures to make it look overwhelmingly in favour of Leave.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:51 am

Vokuhila wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:09 pm
EDJOHNS wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:46 pm
I have not in my working life from the mid 60's to 2012 when I retired found one German I would like to go for a drink with.
I'm sure if Jürgen Klopp called and asked if you fancied sinking a couple of pilsners with him, you probably wouldn't say no.

Seriously though, it's obvious that your anti-German feelings run deep and there's more to the reasons behind them than meets the eye. As a person of a certain age I can't imagine they'll change much now either, but there'll always be people like Carl von Ossietzky and Sophie Scholl to prove you wrong. Incidentally, I'm reading A Life Too Short: The Tragedy of Robert Enke at the moment - no one could ever accuse him of being arrogant.

Anyways, back to Brexit...
My daughter would jump at the chance as she is a Liverpool fan, but as the only Prem league club I am interested in are WHU I would not go out of my way to meet Klopp. That said, he does come across as the exception to the rule.
Peoples opinions are built over life's experience. Mine having dealt with them virtually all my life is I just don't like them. The sadness is that people won't just accept that and keep pushing and digging and in the end annoyance pushes you to use stronger words than you actually want to do in anger at being pushed. I would add before it all becomes about WW2 alone, I get on fine with both Japanese and Italians.

I have said for many years, Germany lost 2 world wars with bullets but they are winning the 3rd with money and words. I am NOT a Euro hater.(my working life proves that beyond any doubt), I detest the idea I should stand and salute a flag I do not believe in and an "anthem" that belittles the country I love.
I wonder how many out there having a go at me can actually sing the entire national anthem. Most countries sing their's in entirety. Why do we only sing 1/3rd of ours?

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by lo36789 » Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:04 am

EDJOHNS wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:51 am
I wonder how many out there having a go at me can actually sing the entire national anthem. Most countries sing their's in entirety. Why do we only sing 1/3rd of ours?
Who cares?

What is a country ultimately if not a man made concept and claim of possession on the worlds resources. It just creates a division based purely on geographical co-ordinates of where you were born / live.

Biologically I am no more identical to my next door neighbour than someone in eastern Russia, everything else is taught.

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Democracy under threat.

Post by Darlogramps » Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:18 am

Also our national anthem is terrible and unrepresentative anyway. A religious affirmation of loyalty to our monarch, who’s in position by accident of birth. I’m not a fan of it or what it represents.

But I think a debate about republicanism is a stretch too far in this thread.
If ever you're bored or miserable:

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by joejaques » Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:16 am

On the subject of the so called National Anthem. How come the Scots and Welsh get to ignore it & use their own versions? :roll:
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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:54 pm

Not saying I particularly like our national anthem. In fact it is as Billy Connoley said, "A bit of a dirge". Simply pointing out the watering down of our national identity.

It becomes more and more obvious some are not as bothered about our individual national identity as others. I find that very sad and would look forward to an English anthem much as the Scots and Welsh have.

I have asked a number of times now with no answer. Has anyone got any idea at all how we are going to draw the country back together again? Me thinks it is going to get a lot worse before it gets better. Very worrying when people have started threatening MP's as reported yesterday evening.(By attack I mean both verbal as well as physical)

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:43 pm

Was checking out some music on You Tube and this came up on the right hand side so I took a butchers.
Thought, Good Lord, someone speaking some sense.
Then, after it finished, I noticed the date of the video.
So sad that nothing has changed in the interim.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-U4esR0fq0

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:25 pm

I was told on 1 of these threads that I was wrong when I said the German economy was in trouble and was being propped up by the money they steal from other countries because the German economy was fine !!!!!!

So fine in fact

Is this up to date enough?

https://www.express.co.uk/finance/city/ ... QbXP74KJLg

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:10 pm


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