Democracy under threat.

Talk about anything you want in here.

Moderators: botrash, mikkyx, charlie, uncovered

Darlo_Pete
Posts: 11925
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:13 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Darlo_Pete » Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:01 pm

Yes I know you can be very trying at times!!!! :lol:

User avatar
QuakerPete
Posts: 1123
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:51 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by QuakerPete » Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:02 pm

Darlogramps wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:12 am
DarloOnTheUp wrote:
QuakerPete wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:33 pm
Darlo_Pete wrote:QuakerPete swimming against the tide on here. :D
Still haven’t answered about the referendum illegalities Pete!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
He'd be wasting his time. I explained clearly and concisely how pretty much everything you've been saying is utter nonsense (including the illegalities), yet it all went over your head.

Never mind, I tried.
Darlogramps wrote:Always the same with QuakerPete. He's never wrong apparently, and anything which suggests an alternative opinion is either corrupt or stupid according to him. And if it answers his points, he'll ignore it because it's too inconvenient.
Welcome back after a long absence Gramps - saw your post after my Irony Meter alert went way off the scale and guessed it was you! Projecting much these days?
Are you in the habit of stating things in a debate you knowingly believe to be wrong? I'm not. We all put forward our best argument, with supporting evidence where possible - but you already know that because that's your modus operandi
If I reply to a post with my opinion plus further rebuttal evidence, it's because I believe the original poster was wrong - but you already know that because it's your modus operandi (incessantly)
Darlogramps wrote:For instance, in this thread he'll refuse to even look at sources of info which are right wing and pro-Brexit. But he's more than happy to quote the far-left, anti-Semitic, fake-news peddling hate site that is The Canary.
Projecting again! You don't like the messenger but refuse to deal with the message, all salient points made are easily checked. It's a dishonest position to take, otherwise!
Darlogramps wrote:There's been no attempt from him to even acknowledge the many legitimate arguments in favour of Brexit. The absolutism on both sides is what's been so damaging. Whether to leave the EU is not a binary issue, it's a sliding scale. There are benefits to remaining, of course there are. But there are also benefits to leaving.
I am constantly asking for the tangible benefits of leaving yet no-one seems forthcoming with a list.
Darlogramps wrote:The question is really around which sets of benefits and consequences we want to live with. For me, on balance, if the EU were simply a trading bloc, I'd have no issue. But it is unbelievably undemocratic (see the Greek bailouts, re-running of referendums etc), lacks any form of basic accountability (the only body with any direct accountability to the people it serves is the EU Parliament, the weakest of the EU's institutions) and insists on interfering by applying one-size fits all policies to 28 vastly different countries (from the economy, immigration, farming, agriculture, etc).
I have no problem with anyone saying they don't want anything (politically) to do with the EU and therefore prefer to leave. I don't agree with it as a solution to any of the UK's problems or that it will enhance our political systems or debate, more a state of mind of being self-governing than the actuality that we already are self-governing alongside mutually agreed areas. It's my belief that the UK's power and influence (politically) will be much diminished on leaving the EU - obviously from within the EU (that's a given), but also around the world (harder to prove either way in that argument - though already countries such as Japan are refusing to roll-over our existing deals through the EU because they know they have more leverage over the UK as a stand-alone country).
On the trading side of the EU, no-one here or anywhere else for that matter have demonstrated that we will be either equally or better off outside the EU, with some of the options being touted by Leave as just straightforward disastrous. If we leave the EU, our trading deal with them will be worse than we have now - that's just a fact - it's the level of how bad the deal is that's to be determined. I've presented sources from a number of areas across the spectrum who state all options to leave will be worse for UK, financially. Unless anyone knows different to this?
And I don't accept the EU is less democratic than the UK. I don't see how you expect the European Parliament (elected MEPs) to have more more power and influence than the European Council (heads of government) who use the European Commission (each country has one Commissioner) to advance their policies and plans. That's the UK equivalent of MPs telling the sitting government what to do on policy and making them carry it out.
Darlogramps wrote:But not once have hardline remainers attempted to see it that way. Instead they've told people they were too stupid to know what they were voting for, that they were duped, or that they have corrupt intentions.
When someone has that mentality, it's pointless trying to engage. They simply do not want to know.
I'm not sure whether you're applying this sentence and ALL other previous points to me personally or just ranting in general, if you are it seems a bizarre kind of projecting, again with a lack of evidence to back it up. Or is it just a case of playing the man and not the ball to get an "opinion" across?

EDJOHNS
Posts: 234
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:56 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:51 pm

I know, reported by the Mail so it can't be correct.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... gWymYNoM58

Henley
Posts: 505
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:49 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Henley » Sat Apr 13, 2019 5:36 pm

I’ve always thought of Quaker Pete as objectionable.

This thread does nothing to contest that.

User avatar
QuakerPete
Posts: 1123
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:51 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by QuakerPete » Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:45 pm

Henley wrote:I’ve always thought of Quaker Pete as objectionable.

This thread does nothing to contest that.
Your message means a lot to me - moral compass correctly calibrated. A win for both of us!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Henley
Posts: 505
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:49 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Henley » Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:37 pm

H1987 wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:06 pm
but i'd be prepared to compromise to this
Well, that’s very magnanimous of you, as a loser of the referendum, to compromise with the winners!

:roll:

Henley
Posts: 505
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:49 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Henley » Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:51 pm

EDJOHNS wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:46 pm
Sadly those who voted UKIP to force the leaving thought that once the referendum took place it was a done deal and they went back to their "natural" parties. Big, big mistake.
Yes, I was annoyed at Farage downing tools after the referendum (although he did deserve a breather) as the pressure needed to be continuously applied.

Delighted to see the recent drop in the polls for the Tories (and I’m a member of the party!). Got to get a Brexiter in as leader to try and stop this mess from May by agreeing an FTA instead (which will hopefully allow them to call a General Election after 12 months).

I’ll be voting Tory in the council elections but the Brexit Party have my EU parliament vote. I live in a constituency with a massive Tory majority so, unfortunately, any threat to the current MP is not realistic, although they have behaved reasonably as a Remainer, unlike those in Beaconsfield and Broxtowe.

EDJOHNS
Posts: 234
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:56 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:16 am

Henley wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:51 pm
EDJOHNS wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:46 pm
Sadly those who voted UKIP to force the leaving thought that once the referendum took place it was a done deal and they went back to their "natural" parties. Big, big mistake.
Yes, I was annoyed at Farage downing tools after the referendum (although he did deserve a breather) as the pressure needed to be continuously applied.

Delighted to see the recent drop in the polls for the Tories (and I’m a member of the party!). Got to get a Brexiter in as leader to try and stop this mess from May by agreeing an FTA instead (which will hopefully allow them to call a General Election after 12 months).

I’ll be voting Tory in the council elections but the Brexit Party have my EU parliament vote. I live in a constituency with a massive Tory majority so, unfortunately, any threat to the current MP is not realistic, although they have behaved reasonably as a Remainer, unlike those in Beaconsfield and Broxtowe.
I have been a NF fan for many years in the political world, and want to see him back involved.
That said, I would love to see not 1 single person vote in the EU elections to show our wish to be apart. Sadly all that would do is let the leavers have a free run as they would obviously not agree.
I really do not see how we could get our message across any better.

Darlo_Pete
Posts: 11925
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:13 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Darlo_Pete » Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:31 pm

Don't like NF to be honest, a bit of a pratt and he'll never make the top table. But Ed we live in a democracy or we did before the Brexit vote was ignored, everybody is entitled to their own opinions.

H1987
Posts: 1188
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 4:14 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by H1987 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:09 am

Henley wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:37 pm
H1987 wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:06 pm
but i'd be prepared to compromise to this
Well, that’s very magnanimous of you, as a loser of the referendum, to compromise with the winners!

:roll:
Democracy isn't a game of football son. If more folks seemed to understand that, we wouldn't be in this horrible mess.

Henley
Posts: 505
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:49 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Henley » Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:43 pm

H1987 wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:09 am
Henley wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:37 pm
H1987 wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:06 pm
but i'd be prepared to compromise to this
Well, that’s very magnanimous of you, as a loser of the referendum, to compromise with the winners!

:roll:
Democracy isn't a game of football son. If more folks seemed to understand that, we wouldn't be in this horrible mess.
I will file your message under:

“Another false/irrelevant analogy made by Remoaner”

:roll:

H1987
Posts: 1188
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 4:14 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by H1987 » Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:50 pm

Henley wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:43 pm
H1987 wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:09 am
Henley wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:37 pm
H1987 wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:06 pm
but i'd be prepared to compromise to this
Well, that’s very magnanimous of you, as a loser of the referendum, to compromise with the winners!

:roll:
Democracy isn't a game of football son. If more folks seemed to understand that, we wouldn't be in this horrible mess.
I will file your message under:

“Another false/irrelevant analogy made by Remoaner”

:roll:
Peoples lives are involved. It's not a football game. Grow up.

Darlogramps
Posts: 4646
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 10:47 am
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Darlogramps » Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:10 am

QuakerPete wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:02 pm
Darlogramps wrote:Always the same with QuakerPete. He's never wrong apparently, and anything which suggests an alternative opinion is either corrupt or stupid according to him. And if it answers his points, he'll ignore it because it's too inconvenient.
Welcome back after a long absence Gramps - saw your post after my Irony Meter alert went way off the scale and guessed it was you! Projecting much these days?
Are you in the habit of stating things in a debate you knowingly believe to be wrong? I'm not. We all put forward our best argument, with supporting evidence where possible - but you already know that because that's your modus operandi

If I reply to a post with my opinion plus further rebuttal evidence, it's because I believe the original poster was wrong - but you already know that because it's your modus operandi (incessantly)

QuakerPete! Nice to see you're still obsessing over a thread on an internet forum. How the days must fly by for you! Sadly most of your ramblings in this initial paragraph seem quite paranoid and obsessive, given your rantings about my "modus operandi". Perhaps you'd had a bit too much whisky while out birdwatching.

Darlogramps wrote:For instance, in this thread he'll refuse to even look at sources of info which are right wing and pro-Brexit. But he's more than happy to quote the far-left, anti-Semitic, fake-news peddling hate site that is The Canary.
Projecting again! You don't like the messenger but refuse to deal with the message, all salient points made are easily checked. It's a dishonest position to take, otherwise!
Hmmm, as much as I enjoy the back-and-forth between us, we need to be serious here and consider the implications of what you're saying.

Firstly, your comments in this very thread about not liking the messenger are hypocritical, given your refusal to engage with right wing pro-Brexit sources like the Telegraph or the Express.

Secondly, and more importantly, The Canary is a fake news site (see Impress's censure of it for it's reporting of Laura Kuenessburg's attendances of the Tory Party Conference in 2017. Or the Canary's failure to issue a correction with due prominence. Or the Canary's inaccurate and frankly appalling fake news reporting of junior doctor Rose Polge's suicide).

The Canary also has a history when it comes to anti-semitism (see the vile article from Kerry-Ann Mendoza justifying comparisons of Israel with Nazi Germany. You don't need a history degree to know why that is appalling. Also see the Canary's defence of anti-semites or people accused of anti-semitism, such as Jackie Walker - her of the "Jews are responsible for the slave trade" comments. Or prominent Canary journalist Steve Topple and his frequent spouting of anti-semitic conspiracy theories).

Given all that, it's rather troubling for you as an educated man, to simply wave those concerns away. It worries me you're happy to dismiss the Canary's fake news and anti-semitism purely because it has the same position as you on Brexit. When the messenger is so toxic, the message is rendered irrelevant. So let's start getting sensible here and not pretend fake news sites who stray too close to anti-semitic conspiracy theories are legitimate sources of info. They're not. Let's not get to the stage where you're overlooking fake news and anti-semitism, purely because the site shares your views on Brexit.

I appreciate I'm taking this off on a tangent, but it is important. If you use them to back yourself up, you lose credibility.
If ever you're bored or miserable:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlZohZoadGY

Henley
Posts: 505
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:49 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Henley » Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:55 am

H1987 wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:50 pm
Henley wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:43 pm
H1987 wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:09 am
Henley wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:37 pm
H1987 wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:06 pm
but i'd be prepared to compromise to this
Well, that’s very magnanimous of you, as a loser of the referendum, to compromise with the winners!

:roll:
Democracy isn't a game of football son. If more folks seemed to understand that, we wouldn't be in this horrible mess.
I will file your message under:

“Another false/irrelevant analogy made by Remoaner”

:roll:
Peoples lives are involved. It's not a football game. Grow up.
Referring to it as not a game of football again. Are you broken?

You are correct about lives being involved, none more important or relevant than the lives of the 52%.

H1987
Posts: 1188
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 4:14 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by H1987 » Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:49 am

None more important? Do you actually think your life is more important because of how you voted!?

Not only dim, but selfish as well. What a look.

Henley
Posts: 505
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:49 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Henley » Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:54 pm

H1987 wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:49 am
None more important? Do you actually think your life is more important because of how you voted!?

Not only dim, but selfish as well. What a look.
Are you hard of understanding as you do not not appear to know what “none more important” means?

H1987
Posts: 1188
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 4:14 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by H1987 » Sun Apr 28, 2019 9:42 am

Bairns always have to have the last word. Crack on.

Henley
Posts: 505
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:49 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Henley » Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:12 pm

Tucked up so you insult.

That’s a sign of a Lefty.

Darlo_Pete
Posts: 11925
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:13 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Darlo_Pete » Wed May 08, 2019 8:36 am

What's happening here, is like what has just happened in Istanbul, where the Government has got a re-run of the mayoral election after they lost the original vote.

Fatty eats roadkill
Posts: 3609
Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 7:31 pm
Team Supported: Darlington
Location: On top of a 29 year old big chested woman

Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Fatty eats roadkill » Wed May 08, 2019 2:31 pm

I wonder if NASA have made contact with you at times Pete. One country is actually a democracy whilst one is probably implementing a massive clampdown on those who dared to not toe the party line. We wouldn’t know regards Turkey as they’ve locked up all the journalists.
Waiting for Raj to shaft them!

EDJOHNS
Posts: 234
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:56 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Wed May 08, 2019 4:34 pm

Fatty eats roadkill wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 2:31 pm
I wonder if NASA have made contact with you at times Pete. One country is actually a democracy whilst one is probably implementing a massive clampdown on those who dared to not toe the party line. We wouldn’t know regards Turkey as they’ve locked up all the journalists.
Have to say I question which is which. Many of us strongly believe the whole Brexit farce has been because those told to sort it did not want to leave so have made the democratically ordered process impossible to happen, thus of course, denying democracy.

Turkey is another matter I have deep feelings about but don't want to go there for private reasons.

Seventynine
Posts: 188
Joined: Sat May 12, 2018 8:54 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Seventynine » Sun May 12, 2019 4:23 pm

Henley wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:43 pm
H1987 wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:09 am
Henley wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:37 pm
H1987 wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:06 pm
but i'd be prepared to compromise to this
Well, that’s very magnanimous of you, as a loser of the referendum, to compromise with the winners!

:roll:
Democracy isn't a game of football son. If more folks seemed to understand that, we wouldn't be in this horrible mess.
I will file your message under:

“Another false/irrelevant analogy made by Remoaner”

:roll:
it will be like the others talking flaktrap....

Henley
Posts: 505
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:49 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Henley » Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:40 pm

Who’d have thunk Ken Hodcroft was a good ‘un after all?

He’s the Brexit Party’s parliamentary candidate for ‘Artlepool at the next election.

Darlo_Pete
Posts: 11925
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:13 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Darlo_Pete » Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:08 pm

How can Corbyn & co say it is anti-democratic for Boris to suspend Parliament when they are acting undemocratically to not honour how people voted in the referendum.

User avatar
QuakerPete
Posts: 1123
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:51 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by QuakerPete » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:04 pm

Darlo_Pete wrote:How can Corbyn & co say it is anti-democratic for Boris to suspend Parliament when they are acting undemocratically to not honour how people voted in the referendum.
The clue is in “suspend Parliament”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Darlogramps
Posts: 4646
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 10:47 am
Team Supported: Darlington

Democracy under threat.

Post by Darlogramps » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:58 pm

Johnson’s overplayed his hand on this one. You can’t argue for the sovereignty of parliament and then suspend it because you don’t like what it says.

He should have put his Brexit plans to Parliament, making them a no-confidence matter. And when Parliament rejected them (as they almost certainly would have) then call an election on the issue of Brexit. No one would have backed a Corbyn-led caretaker coalition so an election at that point would have been an inevitability.

Now, there’s the real prospect of a no-confidence vote bringing down the Government, and remainers will coalesce around Corbyn to stop a no-deal and force another referendum.

There is an argument that in getting itself into gridlock, and with all factions refusing any form of compromise, Parliament is responsible for forcing radical action. And there’s truth in that.

This is in essence running down the clock towards no-deal (the equivalent of taking the ball to the corner flag with five minutes to go). I can see why he’s done it, but the better option for me would have been to call an election if Parliament rejected his Brexit plan. Riskier, but far more democratic.
Last edited by Darlogramps on Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If ever you're bored or miserable:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlZohZoadGY

User avatar
QuakerPete
Posts: 1123
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:51 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by QuakerPete » Wed Aug 28, 2019 5:53 pm

Darlogramps wrote:Johnson’s overplayed his hand on this one. You can’t argue for the sovereignty of parliament and then suspend it because you don’t like what it says.

He should have put his Brexit plans to Parliament, making them a no-confidence matter. And when Parliament rejected them (as they almost certainly would have, then call an election on the issue of Brexit). No one would have backed a Corbyn-led caretaker coalition so an election at that point would have been an inevitability.

Now, there’s the real prospect of a no-confidence vote bringing down the Government, and remainers will coalesce around Corbyn to stop a no-deal and force another referendum.

There is an argument that in getting itself into gridlock, and with all factions refusing any form of compromise, Parliament is responsible for forcing radical action. And there’s truth in that.

This is in essence running down the clock towards no-deal (the equivalent of taking the ball to the corner flag with five minutes to go). I can see why he’s done it, but the better option for me would have been to call an election if Parliament rejected his Brexit plan. Riskier, but far more democratic.
Surprisingly - and I applaud DG’s candour and pragmatism in this post - I agree with just about all he’s said here.
By the time of the Queen’s Speech in October, Johnson will have been PM for 80 days but only 5 of those days would have been under the scrutiny and accountability of Parliament.
It seems it’s now a choice between a parliamentary democracy (which is what Leavers claimed they wanted) or a Johnson dictatorship underpinned by Dominic Cummins who is still “in contempt” of that very same Parliament


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

EDJOHNS
Posts: 234
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:56 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:53 pm

I have yet to see a reasoned answer as to how holding a second referendum before the first is enacted is "democratic". Saying the leavers lied to get the result is laughable. The remainders told just as many and the fear garbage I read daily would be laughable if not so serious.

I do not particularly like the idea of parliament being suspended, but at least that will allow him to go to the table to talk with something to fight with.
Removing the "No deal" Brexit was the most stupid thing they could have done as it simply told the rest of the EU they could refuse to negotiate.

Who do we blame for this mess? Every single MP who have for 3 years thought more about scoring party points against the others than thinking about the damage they have done to the country. This mess is the upshot.

Darlogramps
Posts: 4646
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 10:47 am
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Darlogramps » Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:00 am

QuakerPete wrote:
Darlogramps wrote:Johnson’s overplayed his hand on this one. You can’t argue for the sovereignty of parliament and then suspend it because you don’t like what it says.

He should have put his Brexit plans to Parliament, making them a no-confidence matter. And when Parliament rejected them (as they almost certainly would have, then call an election on the issue of Brexit). No one would have backed a Corbyn-led caretaker coalition so an election at that point would have been an inevitability.

Now, there’s the real prospect of a no-confidence vote bringing down the Government, and remainers will coalesce around Corbyn to stop a no-deal and force another referendum.

There is an argument that in getting itself into gridlock, and with all factions refusing any form of compromise, Parliament is responsible for forcing radical action. And there’s truth in that.

This is in essence running down the clock towards no-deal (the equivalent of taking the ball to the corner flag with five minutes to go). I can see why he’s done it, but the better option for me would have been to call an election if Parliament rejected his Brexit plan. Riskier, but far more democratic.
Surprisingly - and I applaud DG’s candour and pragmatism in this post - I agree with just about all he’s said here.
By the time of the Queen’s Speech in October, Johnson will have been PM for 80 days but only 5 of those days would have been under the scrutiny and accountability of Parliament.
It seems it’s now a choice between a parliamentary democracy (which is what Leavers claimed they wanted) or a Johnson dictatorship underpinned by Dominic Cummins who is still “in contempt” of that very same Parliament


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
See, there is common ground between us.

Having said that, the use of “dictatorship” is hyperbolic. This is no dictatorship, just ask the citizens of China or North Korea. Meanwhile, we have author Philip Pullman calling for Boris to be lynched. This is why hyperbole is dangerous. People get whipped up and eventually someone takes things too far.

We also have Remainers calling for the monarchy to be abolished, because the Queen granted Boris’ request. These are people blinded by partisanship, entirely ignorant of our own constitution.

To put the prorogation in context, we’ve been in the same parliamentary session for two years now, and people were sharp to criticise Theresa May for not doing anything beyond Brexit. It’s not abnormal for a new PM to prorogue Parliament to forward their own agenda.

But to do it right in the middle of a politically sensitive time, with a deadline for leaving the EU just weeks away is extraordinary. It’s blatantly about running down the clock, and it’s this lack of scrutiny which I find undemocratic. Call an election, make it exclusively about Brexit and then he can have a mandate for what he wishes, if the public vote for it.
If ever you're bored or miserable:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlZohZoadGY

Henley
Posts: 505
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:49 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Henley » Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:32 am

Darlogramps wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:58 pm
Johnson’s overplayed his hand on this one. You can’t argue for the sovereignty of parliament and then suspend it because you don’t like what it says.
I disagree. They are losing only 4 days of debate time. After three years of titting around, 4 days do no matter. They will also have time to debate what will hopefully be a new improved Withdrawal Agreement before 31 October. We have to leave by 31 October deal or no deal - this cannot drag on.
Darlogramps wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:58 pm
He should have put his Brexit plans to Parliament, making them a no-confidence matter. And when Parliament rejected them (as they almost certainly would have) then call an election on the issue of Brexit. No one would have backed a Corbyn-led caretaker coalition so an election at that point would have been an inevitability.

Now, there’s the real prospect of a no-confidence vote bringing down the Government, and remainers will coalesce around Corbyn to stop a no-deal and force another referendum.
Parliament knows his intentions and there is the possibility of a VONC taking place next week. For obvious reasons, Boris wants Parliament to force him into an Election.
Darlogramps wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:58 pm
There is an argument that in getting itself into gridlock, and with all factions refusing any form of compromise, Parliament is responsible for forcing radical action. And there’s truth in that.
There's more than truth in it. We could have left with a deal if Labour hadn't played politics. Whilst an extension is possible, you're never going to get a vote for a deal through. Boris is trying to remove the extension option to leave Parliament with only two options: a deal or no deal - the EU won't budge if they think repeated requests for an extension will come.
Darlogramps wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:58 pm
This is in essence running down the clock towards no-deal (the equivalent of taking the ball to the corner flag with five minutes to go). I can see why he’s done it, but the better option for me would have been to call an election if Parliament rejected his Brexit plan. Riskier, but far more democratic.
The possibility of an election remains. He's forcing the issue. Let's see if Parliament have the balls to do it. Come on Soubry, Allen and all the other quitters - put your seats at risk.

Post Reply