Democracy under threat.

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Henley
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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Henley » Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:37 am

Darlogramps wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:00 am
Call an election, make it exclusively about Brexit and then he can have a mandate for what he wishes, if the public vote for it.
His has a mandate for leaving - it was originally given in 2016 and then re-affirmed in 2017.

I'm not sure why you don't think he has a mandate. The ballot paper said "Leave the EU", not "Leave the EU with a deal".

The public knew it was not possible for the UK to force the EU to offer us an acceptable deal yet STILL voted to Leave.

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Democracy under threat.

Post by Darlogramps » Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:20 pm

Henley wrote:
Darlogramps wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:00 am
Call an election, make it exclusively about Brexit and then he can have a mandate for what he wishes, if the public vote for it.
His has a mandate for leaving - it was originally given in 2016 and then re-affirmed in 2017.

I'm not sure why you don't think he has a mandate. The ballot paper said "Leave the EU", not "Leave the EU with a deal".

The public knew it was not possible for the UK to force the EU to offer us an acceptable deal yet STILL voted to Leave.
There is a mandate to leave (although Boris himself hasn’t faced the electorate in an election yet). But arguing he has a mandate to leave is way too simplistic and is what got us into the mess in the first place.

How do we leave? What does our relationship with the EU look like? And what consequence does that have with our relationships across the rest of the world? What about the land border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland? What consequences will that have for the peace process there? What about businesses and industries who do rely on trade with the EU? You can’t just say “Leave means leave, I want out”, there’s way more to it.

I voted leave in 2016. But the only person who ever attempted to define what that meant was Theresa May - and her version was rejected three times by Parliament. Everyone else has squabbled, bickered, blocked and failed to come up with an alternative.

And failing to define exactly what leaving means is what led us to this point - gridlock and uncertainty. If we’re not careful, we get PM Corbyn, another referendum and no Brexit. That’s why saying: “We have a mandate to leave and that’s it” is way too simplistic. It’s ideologically driven and ignores the realities and uncertainties many people face as a result.

This is why I don’t like the idea of shutting down Parliament. Boris argues in 2016 that parliament should be sovereign. And it was something I agreed with, and argued on these very pages. Much better to have a democratically accountable parliament responsible for decisions than federalists in Brussels.

But you can’t argue for Parliamentary sovereignty and then shut it down to give yourself a better chance of achieving your aim. It’s hypocritical and undemocratic to avoid scrutiny in this way.

That’s why I say he should just call an election. Then he gets himself an unquestionable mandate for the form of Brexit he wants, no arguments. He doesn’t have that currently.
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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Henley » Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:35 pm

The one option Parliament voted for was the Malthouse Conpromise (effectively May’s deal without the backstop). That’s what Boris is trying to get the EU to change.

If he gets that change and then Parliament vote it down again then it will be clear that Parliament will not accept our departure.

In that case, Boris is completely justified in pushing through a no deal Brexit.

Parliament’s obvious tactic is to delay Brexit for so long that they feel an argument of “it’s been so long since the original vote that we should have another vote” becomes incontrovertible. Boris is rightly not playing their games.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by lo36789 » Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:49 pm

Darlogramps wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:20 pm
There is a mandate to leave (although Boris himself hasn’t faced the electorate in an election yet). But arguing he has a mandate to leave is way too simplistic and is what got us into the mess in the first place.

How do we leave? What does our relationship with the EU look like? And what consequence does that have with our relationships across the rest of the world? What about the land border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland? What consequences will that have for the peace process there? What about businesses and industries who do rely on trade with the EU? You can’t just say “Leave means leave, I want out”, there’s way more to it.
Think gramps has this pretty much spot on tbh.

I voted remain and lost, and don’t dispute the outcome was leave the EU.

Does it mean absolutely nothing that throughout the entire campaign not once did vote leave say that leaving without a deal was a remote possibility? In fact the complete opposite was said and if a remain campaigner said the outcome would be no deal they were accused of project fear.

How can the fear projected outcome now be the desired outcome - when it was acknowledged to be frightful?

Can you say that if the options were as follows ‘Leave with a deal’ ‘Leave without a deal’ & ‘Remain’ that leave without a deal would have been the most popular outcome? I am not convinced but doubt we will ever know.

The brexit vote didn’t give clarity on what Leave meant, your “re-affirmed” vote for May (was that really re-affirmed she lost her majority) was based on no deal not being a possibility, so where is the mandate for leave being “no deal”?

Johnson can achieve that with a GE. If he wins with no deal on the table there is the mandate.

As a remainer and tactical labour voter (would actually vote green if they could unseat the Tory’s in my constituency) I think he would walk a GE right now. Given the state of the opposition at the moment if he didn’t that would be a pretty strong indicator that no deal perhaps isn’t the mandate...

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Darlogramps » Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:14 pm

Seems Boris has been listening to me.

An election next month if MPs take no deal off the table tomorrow.
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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by QuakerPete » Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:07 pm

Darlogramps wrote:Seems Boris has been listening to me.

An election next month if MPs take no deal off the table tomorrow.
Only if two-thirds of MPs vote for an election - Fixed Term Parliament Act. It may be a Vote of No Confidence instead. Everything is up in the air!


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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Darlo_Pete » Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:32 pm

Jenny Chapman will be scared of an election, as I can't see her winning after her betrayal of the voters in Darlington. I can see Labour losing a whole load of seats in the North East.

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Democracy under threat.

Post by Darlogramps » Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:08 am

QuakerPete wrote:
Darlogramps wrote:Seems Boris has been listening to me.

An election next month if MPs take no deal off the table tomorrow.
Only if two-thirds of MPs vote for an election - Fixed Term Parliament Act. It may be a Vote of No Confidence instead. Everything is up in the air!


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Opposition parties are using new legislation to block no-deal rather than VONC by the looks of things.

They want to force the PM into extending Article 50 until the end of January if there isn’t a deal with the EU before October 19. And he wouldn’t be able to bring about no-deal unless Parliament voted for it (which it won’t). Not entirely sure this will achieve anything other than kicking the can down the road.

Boris’ response will be to call an election. FTPA is largely irrelevant given Corbyn has repeatedly stated he wants an election. Same for the SNP too. The leading opposition parties can hardly say they want to remove the Tories from power, then turn down the chance to do so.

“What do we want? An election!”
“When do we want it? Errr, not right now”

It would easily be painted as cowardice, not a good look if you want to lead the country into some of the most difficult negotiations we’ve ever faced.
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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by QuakerPete » Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:29 am

Darlogramps wrote:
QuakerPete wrote:
Darlogramps wrote:Seems Boris has been listening to me.

An election next month if MPs take no deal off the table tomorrow.
Only if two-thirds of MPs vote for an election - Fixed Term Parliament Act. It may be a Vote of No Confidence instead. Everything is up in the air!


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Opposition parties are using new legislation to block no-deal rather than VONC by the looks of things.

They want to force the PM into extending Article 50 until the end of January if there isn’t a deal with the EU before October 19. And he wouldn’t be able to bring about no-deal unless Parliament voted for it (which it won’t). Not entirely sure this will achieve anything other than kicking the can down the road.

Boris’ response will be to call an election. FTPA is largely irrelevant given Corbyn has repeatedly stated he wants an election. Same for the SNP too. The leading opposition parties can hardly say they want to remove the Tories from power, then turn down the chance to do so.

“What do we want? An election!”
“When do we want it? Errr, not right now”

It would easily be painted as cowardice, not a good look if you want to lead the country into some of the most difficult negotiations we’ve ever faced.
Depends really on priority of actions for the opposition. First and foremost it’s to stop a No Deal taking place. That is probably their most united point with all the different factions.
Afterwards, who knows whether those same people will then go down the election route or VONC for temporary GONU to introduce a Confirmatory Vote, etc. Can’t see Hammond and Tories wanting to assist Corbyn into power, even temporarily


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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:42 am

Watched a "Brexit debate" on I think channel 4 last night.
The main argument anyone could put up for staying in was that "We did not vote for a no deal leave". Quite correct. Neither did we vote that we must have a deal to leave. We voted leave.Plain and simple.
How can people use guess work,(yes, predictions are guess work), to project fear, yet ignore actual facts that we know to be true. Do you really want our armed forces to be under the control of the EU with no input from GB in their leadership? Just 1 of the nasty little nuggets being kept quiet so that people do not realise the lengths the EU have gone to to force us to remain.
You do not have a second referendum or an election to get a democratic decision. You act on the first 1 and then, at some point in the future, if you want to you go back to the people and ask if they want to rejoin.
Scream all you like. That is the ONLY democratic way forward. Our MP's were told to get us out and because some of them did not want to leave they have dithered and dallied and brought the country to the point of virtual anarchy with the marches and protest.

As a "point 2" The SNP totally baffle me. They keep saying that Scotland voted to remain and are being ignored. True, a majority did, but they also voted to remain in the UK. If they accept 1 majority why should they expect the majority vote,(which of course was larger if you discount the % from Scotland), to be changed to suit what becomes the minority of the UK? That is simply, yet again as with the rest of the remainders, saying that the minority should rule because "They know best". You don't. You are guessing.
Last edited by EDJOHNS on Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by lo36789 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:48 pm

I mean if you are going to harp on about facts the concept of an EU army which was created to try and get voted out of a certain demographic but doesn’t actually exist isn’t a brilliant starting point. We are members of NATO that is about it in terms of allied armed forces.

And then say that they voted to remain and then later voted to remain in the UK...they voted to remain in the UK after Cameron said that the only way to remain in the EU was to be in the UK. The the UK as a whole later voted to leave the EU.

Indyref was pre-Brexit

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:11 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:48 pm
I mean if you are going to harp on about facts the concept of an EU army which was created to try and get voted out of a certain demographic but doesn’t actually exist isn’t a brilliant starting point. We are members of NATO that is about it in terms of allied armed forces.

And then say that they voted to remain and then later voted to remain in the UK...they voted to remain in the UK after Cameron said that the only way to remain in the EU was to be in the UK. The the UK as a whole later voted to leave the EU.

Indyref was pre-Brexit
You are about the same on this thread as all football ones.

Go read the agreement May wanted passed. OUR armed forces are at the beck and call of the EU while we can not have anything to do with the organisation of what they are ordered to do.

You want to make that a "theoretical" idea. Here is a news flash. So are all the doom and gloom theories being issued. They are idea's, not facts, yet you believe them while belittling as nothing what is written in the agreement offered. STRANGE.

You agree then, Scotland voted to remain in both the EU which they want to do and also remain in the UK, which they do not want to accept what the majority voted for?

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by lo36789 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:03 pm

EDJOHNS wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:11 pm
You agree then, Scotland voted to remain in both the EU which they want to do and also remain in the UK, which they do not want to accept what the majority voted for?
That isn't what you said though...quite ironic that you would take a very specific point and then generalise it (it's almost akin to choosing which exit to take out of Bank tube station and summarising it as "exit means exit" - if you take the wrong one you could end up coming out at Monument but I guess at least you got out and that is all you wanted right...). Anyway just a subtle point completing changing your post, we can see the trail of your edit, after being called out on a factual inaccuracy is quite poor form and does somewhat damage your credibility.

I acknowledge that independently;

1. Scotland voted to remain in the UK, and that one of the arguments made by the No (to independence) campaign was that for Scotland to remain in the EU they must remain in the UK.

2. After that they then voted in an overwhelming majority 62% - 38% to remain in the EU.

Thing is you said "I don't understand how they can vote to remain in the UK and then later to remain in the UK" that is quite a critical inaccuracy. The ordering of the votes is hugely important which is why the SNP stance is entirely not baffling. They arguably had a majority voted to remain in the EU on two occasions. I usually decide if I want a dessert after I have had my main. I might even order a dessert before my main, but since my appetite will be affected by eating my main I appreciate the opportunity to change my mind when circumstances substantially change.

Also on the whole EU armed forces stuff. Find me the paragraph which says that the UK army is effectively under the command of "the EU" (no input from GB in the leadership of our armed forces was the way you worded it, can you advise who in the EU instructs the armies of Europe given the EU doesn't have a military command?). I am pretty confident that there will be obligations to work collaboratively on intelligence, and with regard defense. It is only sensible to do that the idea of every nation having to have sufficient armed forces to combat the attack from any would be attackers has to be the biggest waste of resources ever (much rather funding went on education, health and environment than weapons and soldiers).

Ultimately if Russia were planning to attack our communications networks tomorrow I suspect we would want some help from EU allies to thwart the attack rather than having to resource it all ourselves - mainly because we don't actually have sufficient skill set to do it in the UK...that doesn't mean that all military operations are being instructed (no input from GB in their leadership) never has been never will be.

Out of interest are you one of those that believe that the UK has to adopt the Euro by 2022, one of my favourite reason for someone voting Brexit ever "we have to leave because it says in the EU that we have to use the euro by 2022"...I am actually in awe at how the data gang identified and targetted those who were prone to this misinformation to get them out to vote and influence there vote, they truly did engage the politically disengaged.

It all sounds weird debating this stuff because I actually know that I'll be fine. I vote against the Tories in every election even though their policies at best benefit me and at worst have no impact. They will keep reducing my taxes and they will keep the financial services power going (because that is who supports their investment funds and gives them nice rewards once they are no longer MPs with a comfortable non-exec director position overseen by former university friends who are in positions of power in the regulators). They will keep cutting the NHS to it's bare bones (but I am covered privately), they will keep reducing policing (but fortunately criminals don't have huge amounts of mobility so tend to stick to their own doorsteps). I am not the 3 in 4 members of the UK population who have less than £100 in savings, I am not one of the 25% who every month end up more and more in debt because their income is less than their outgoings.

They are the ones who are going to be most affected when import costs go up (mostly food and medicines) and public services continue to be cut. They are the reason I vote for progressive parties and voted to remain in the EU ultimately.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by QuakerPete » Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:27 pm

EDJOHNS wrote:Watched a "Brexit debate" on I think channel 4 last night.
The main argument anyone could put up for staying in was that "We did not vote for a no deal leave". Quite correct. Neither did we vote that we must have a deal to leave. We voted leave.Plain and simple.
How can people use guess work,(yes, predictions are guess work), to project fear, yet ignore actual facts that we know to be true. Do you really want our armed forces to be under the control of the EU with no input from GB in their leadership? Just 1 of the nasty little nuggets being kept quiet so that people do not realise the lengths the EU have gone to to force us to remain.
You do not have a second referendum or an election to get a democratic decision. You act on the first 1 and then, at some point in the future, if you want to you go back to the people and ask if they want to rejoin.
Scream all you like. That is the ONLY democratic way forward. Our MP's were told to get us out and because some of them did not want to leave they have dithered and dallied and brought the country to the point of virtual anarchy with the marches and protest.

As a "point 2" The SNP totally baffle me. They keep saying that Scotland voted to remain and are being ignored. True, a majority did, but they also voted to remain in the UK. If they accept 1 majority why should they expect the majority vote,(which of course was larger if you discount the % from Scotland), to be changed to suit what becomes the minority of the UK? That is simply, yet again as with the rest of the remainders, saying that the minority should rule because "They know best". You don't. You are guessing.
Lots of old stuff coming back here!
I didn’t see the Channel 4 debate, but would imagine the “not voting for No Deal” comments are being made in the context of the current political situation. The concept of anyone voting purely and 100% on only the contents of a ballot paper is just laughable and, frankly, insulting to the intelligence.
Then “predictions are guesswork”! Well, only if you use tealeaves as your sole method of plucking an outcome from thin air.
Predictions (not the Darlo will beat Man Utd 6-0 type), and more-so Forecasts, are methods of using all the available information, data, facts, rules, trends, modelling, etc., in order to come to conclusions on outcomes for future events. We all do this in our own lives, it doesn’t mean it’s guesswork. If these methods are invalid as being suggested, then a huge amount of people across the world must be stealing a living.
In respect of Brexit there are many areas of fact, one of which unequivocally adversely affects this country. If we leave with No Deal we’ll be worse off - and we’ll be worse off because we’ll lose access to frictionless and free trade with 27 of our nearest neighbours because we can no longer reap the benefits of membership, it’s just a plain fact. We’ll also be paying tariffs on tens of thousands of our products exported to the EU and rest of the world, some sector tariffs are huge such as beef and lamb, others like cars are +10%. We have no control over these tariffs on our exports under WTO. We also can’t “take back control from the WTO”, either!
These aren’t predictions or forecasts, they’re just a fact of being outside a mutual group under WTO rules, but they do add much weight to those forecasts which say overall No Deal will be disastrous. Can anyone forecast the exact costs? No, of course not, but it doesn’t make the overall forecast conclusion incorrect.
To state predictions and / or forecasts are “guesswork” really baffles me.
The EU Army rears it’s head again! Veto! We have a veto - and the veto can’t be taken away from us because we’ll . . . veto it! No, we wouldn’t have to join the Euro or Schengen because we have legally binding agreements with the EU which only U.K. can amend.
As for democracy, it’s a process not an event. No-one in their own lives decides a course of action, finds out new information later on to cast doubt on their initial decision (for example, the good deal initially promised turned out to be food and medicines shortages instead), but then still proceed with it even if they had a better alternative. That’s just not critical thinking of any kind and certainly not a requirement for democracy.



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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Fatty eats roadkill » Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:19 am

Darlo_Pete wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:32 pm
Jenny Chapman will be scared of an election, as I can't see her winning after her betrayal of the voters in Darlington. I can see Labour losing a whole load of seats in the North East.
Why’s that Pete? People voted for her because they agreed with the Labour policies she stood for on the whole. If you voted purely on Brexit at the last General Election you should’ve voted for Britain First or whatever s*** name they have, makes you a fool for confusing Brexit with everything else. There’s lots of fools around us.
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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:24 am

"Out of interest are you one of those that believe that the UK has to adopt the Euro by 2022"

No, as I stated earlier, I have personal reasons for wanting us out that I am not prepared to discuss. I have tried to find a way to give a generalised reason for these views, sadly I have failed to do so.

By the way, I am not, and never have been in favour of a no deal exit.I would however prefer that to staying in.
I am fully aware that short term it would be hard, but there are simple facts that remainders always ignore when promoting their version of a leaving future.
Firstly, to join the EU we were forced into giving up 80% of our trade with our natural allies, the Commonwealth. They have already clearly stated they would welcome that trade back. Add the new trade possibilities of China etc and we actually have the markets there to trade with once the deals can be set up.Thus I say hard short term but long term we would be ok.
Second, Just 1 example, Germany sell 27% of their cars into the UK market. If they loose that market they have no obvious replacement market. How long do you think they can afford to refuse to deal? Frau Merkle is hanging on in Germany by an ever thinning string because their economy is decreasing. Loose our trade permanently and it will plummet rapidly.

Do you honestly believe that if we have a general election and the remainders get their wish this will all go away? It really won't you know. Some people, are as determined to get us out as remainders are to keep us in.
Say we have the election and Labour get in. You get your wish to remain in the EU, but with a governmental system that has proved over and over and world wide that it fails.
The biggest mistake made recently was that after the original vote to leave those who voted UKIP because they wanted out thought the job was done and at the next election they went back to their "natural" political inclinations before the exit was delivered.

Sadly I see this getting a lot worse before it gets better, no matter what the short term holds.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Fatty eats roadkill » Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:27 am

Ed, we already have those trade deals. What you’ve said is basically, “you see that Christmas card there? I can get it now for £1, but I’m going to spend £50 haggling with you and then I’m going to buy it from you for £1.30!”
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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by lo36789 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:59 am

EDJOHNS wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:24 am
Do you honestly believe that if we have a general election and the remainders get their wish this will all go away? It really won't you know. Some people, are as determined to get us out as remainders are to keep us in.
Say we have the election and Labour get in. You get your wish to remain in the EU, but with a governmental system that has proved over and over and world wide that it fails.
The biggest mistake made recently was that after the original vote to leave those who voted UKIP because they wanted out thought the job was done and at the next election they went back to their "natural" political inclinations before the exit was delivered.
Yeh because UKIPs two seats would have made all the difference right now.

Why do you think that a general election will somehow mean that we remain in the EU? Boris is going to go hard on leave at all costs in the GE - once he has that in his manifesto there won't be any Tory rebels standing against him. We will almost certain have a Tory majority by my reckoning and by that token leave will be settled on 31st October.

Corbyn is making things worse as he seems to want to avoid a GE as he knows that another defeat in a GE will surely be the end for him (how can he continue to do his role when it has proven time and time again he will not be elected if he wants to inspire change he is better on the back benches of a government in power than leading one which is dwindling in influence). Labour will almost certainly lose out in marginal brexit voting constituencies so I would expect a decent Tory majority in 6 weeks time.

The worst thing that those who want leave could do now would be to move toward the brexit party or whatever they are called - it would just dilute the Tory vote. It will be interesting to see whether Farage puts his own bank balance behind or ahead of his supposed beliefs - being Mr Brexit has earned him an absolute fortune. His best course of action if he truly believes what he has projected would be to dissolve the party and effectively encourage a Tory vote...we shall see.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by lo36789 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:11 am

EDJOHNS wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:24 am
Firstly, to join the EU we were forced into giving up 80% of our trade with our natural allies, the Commonwealth. They have already clearly stated they would welcome that trade back.
'Natural' allies is an interesting take on the formation of the empire like.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Darlo_Pete » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:21 am

Fatty eats roadkill wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:19 am
Darlo_Pete wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:32 pm
Jenny Chapman will be scared of an election, as I can't see her winning after her betrayal of the voters in Darlington. I can see Labour losing a whole load of seats in the North East.
Why’s that Pete? People voted for her because they agreed with the Labour policies she stood for on the whole. If you voted purely on Brexit at the last General Election you should’ve voted for Britain First or whatever s*** name they have, makes you a fool for confusing Brexit with everything else. There’s lots of fools around us.
Because the forthcoming election, will be mainly fought over Brexit. A lot of Labour voters in the North East voted to leave. My work involves talking to people in their home often talking about politics & a lot of them are furious that their MP has gone against what the majority of people in her constituency voted for. Those Labour voters will partly abstain from voting or they will vote Conservative, which will give Jenny Chapman a major headache.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:22 pm

Fatty eats roadkill wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:27 am
Ed, we already have those trade deals. What you’ve said is basically, “you see that Christmas card there? I can get it now for £1, but I’m going to spend £50 haggling with you and then I’m going to buy it from you for £1.30!”
I get your point and no argument with it. As I said, we will suffer short term but given time have the markets that can help us recover. Germany, our main protagonists, do not have the options for trade we have and therefore, eventually, will have to recommence trade with us. My argument is with the aims of the EU. Sorry but I simply do not want to be part of it in any way shape or form. It is corrupt top to bottom.
I voted against joining the common market but accepted the result as it was democratically obtained, and I strongly believe in democracy. Neither I nor anyone else voted either for or against the EU, we were never given the chance.
Small points but if you are happy that elected MP's from this country with the sole aim of bringing the thing down are ORDERED to stand facing a flag we never had any say on and show "respect" to both that and a piece of music that has also been foisted on us I am most certainly not. There are so many examples of this body using fear and bully boy tactics I simply want no part of it.
AS I have property in 2 countries that, at this point in time, will still be in the EU I know I personally face many problems if we leave, and I am fully aware that I will be hit financially. I accept that as a consequence of helping bring this monstrosity down.
Having lived abroad on a number of occasions in a number of countries I see our health service being brought down in ways it can't be in other countries because they put their own people first. Don't bother throwing the racist card because I want to see our health service look after our people who have paid in, (be they black, white or yellow), rather than people we are ordered to take in because they are homeless. The law on this, as it stands, is that when fleeing in fear of their lives refugee's must be homed in the first country they arrive in. Germany are refusing point blank to do that and either allowing them to pass through en route to the UK, or moving them on to other EU countries that are overflowing already and struggling to feed their own people.
As I am 70 years old next birthday and not in great health I doubt I will be around to see it, but I would bet a lot of money that if we do not leave now in less than 10 years time it will be 100% illegal for any "State" to leave the "Union" and the UK will be nothing but a vassal state of Germany.
What a waste of life in 2 world wars.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:26 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:11 am
EDJOHNS wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:24 am
Firstly, to join the EU we were forced into giving up 80% of our trade with our natural allies, the Commonwealth. They have already clearly stated they would welcome that trade back.
'Natural' allies is an interesting take on the formation of the empire like.
Those left in the Commonwealth are there because they wish to be because they see benefit in it and not by force of the gun.

Quite funny that you seem to deride the Commonwealth in which countries rights of freedom are being more and more recognised yet you believe in a group where individual countries liberties are being removed.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:36 pm

Lo
"Why do you think that a general election will somehow mean that we remain in the EU?"

I was taking it on the assumption of a labour win.

I know it can't and won't happen but if we go the way of an election I would like to see party politics suspended and have the Brexit matter sorted by a government elected for a shortened period,(2 years)? with the main intent of sorting the mess out, that way, if we get a "leave" mandate we know that all who are tasked to get us out will be of the opinion we should leave as against 3 years ago when the entire team put together to work on us leaving wanted to remain..

I do not see how anyone can argue that this mess shows how poor our political system is. Again, it will never happen, but I would love to see the day when all MP's are independent and free to vote on all things as their constituents want rather than be governed by 1 party or another.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by lo36789 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:48 pm

I’m pretty confident labour would not win a GE tbh the SNP have probably made it unlikely for them to win an outright majority ever again.

Tory will pick up old labour voters who want Brexit and that will be that.

My point on the commonwealth is there is absolutely nothing natural at all in how they became our allies.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by DarloOnTheUp » Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:27 pm

QuakerPete wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:27 pm
Predictions (not the Darlo will beat Man Utd 6-0 type), and more-so Forecasts, are methods of using all the available information, data, facts, rules, trends, modelling, etc., in order to come to conclusions on outcomes for future events. We all do this in our own lives, it doesn’t mean it’s guesswork. If these methods are invalid as being suggested, then a huge amount of people across the world must be stealing a living.
In respect of Brexit there are many areas of fact, one of which unequivocally adversely affects this country. If we leave with No Deal we’ll be worse off - and we’ll be worse off because we’ll lose access to frictionless and free trade with 27 of our nearest neighbours because we can no longer reap the benefits of membership, it’s just a plain fact. We’ll also be paying tariffs on tens of thousands of our products exported to the EU and rest of the world, some sector tariffs are huge such as beef and lamb, others like cars are +10%. We have no control over these tariffs on our exports under WTO. We also can’t “take back control from the WTO”, either!
These aren’t predictions or forecasts, they’re just a fact of being outside a mutual group under WTO rules, but they do add much weight to those forecasts which say overall No Deal will be disastrous. Can anyone forecast the exact costs? No, of course not, but it doesn’t make the overall forecast conclusion incorrect.
To state predictions and / or forecasts are “guesswork” really baffles me.
You can't call a prediction a "fact", that's just dishonest. Predictions may eventually turn out to be accurate but throwing words around like "fact", and definitive statements like "we will be worse off" or “No Deal will be disastrous” is misleading.

If you want to believe them, that’s up to you, but don’t try and paint them as something they’re not.

People also have agendas so you can't always trust what they say, and this isn't all about economics. There are other factors at play here which I'm sure you're aware of. If the EU was nothing more than a trading bloc then this would be an entirely different debate.

EDJOHNS has done a good job on the economics so I’ll leave it at that, plus Remain fear-mongering predictions tend to collapse once you put them under any serious scrutiny.
QuakerPete wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:27 pm
The EU Army rears it’s head again! Veto! We have a veto - and the veto can’t be taken away from us because we’ll . . . veto it! No, we wouldn’t have to join the Euro or Schengen because we have legally binding agreements with the EU which only U.K. can amend.
Yet we DO have to abide by EU laws, which are controlled by unelected commissioners. If UK politicians do something we don't like, we can vote them out. We have no control over the EU upper echelon as the EU is totally anti-democratic (I've mentioned this before, you don't care).

The only power we truly have is to leave, and even that is proving to be impossible.
QuakerPete wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:27 pm
As for democracy, it’s a process not an event. No-one in their own lives decides a course of action, finds out new information later on to cast doubt on their initial decision (for example, the good deal initially promised turned out to be food and medicines shortages instead), but then still proceed with it even if they had a better alternative. That’s just not critical thinking of any kind and certainly not a requirement for democracy.
We haven't even left the EU yet. It's been 3 years and my democratic vote has not been carried out. It is also being thwarted by Remainers every step of the way using every tactic in the book. Every dirty tactic you can think of to stop Brexit from happening is being used to overturn a democratic result, yet WE’RE the ones being called undemocratic, and the Conservatives are the ones being accused of staging a coup etc. What a joke.

This is nothing to do with democracy. It is a blatant attempt to overturn a result which didn't go your way, which by the way is something the EU do repeatedly (I've mentioned this before, again you don't care).

I educated myself before the original referendum so I could make as informed a decision as possible, as I hope everyone did, and decided from that to vote Leave. Nothing has changed since (quite literally, we’re still in the bloody EU), so stop pretending otherwise.

I heard all this BEFORE I voted to leave, you aren't presenting new information, it's just the same tired arguments. The difference now is that we’ve had the vote and Leave won.

Before talk of any further votes, the original vote needs to honoured, end of story. THEN, and only THEN, will I hear talk of "democracy being an ongoing process".

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Darlo_Pete » Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:36 pm

The political map in the North especially the North East could be very different after the next GE. I wouldn't be surprised if the Conservative's win a whole host of former Labour safe seats.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:20 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:48 pm
I’m pretty confident labour would not win a GE tbh the SNP have probably made it unlikely for them to win an outright majority ever again.

Tory will pick up old labour voters who want Brexit and that will be that.

My point on the commonwealth is there is absolutely nothing natural at all in how they became our allies.
Totally agree there was nothing right about the way The Commonwealth came into being but surely you accept that as they have stayed loyal and we lost so many deals with them to join the EU they do give us a good "fall back option"?

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:30 pm

What I do not see is how we actually repair the country 1 way or the other. Both sides are now so entrenched in their stand.
Remainders say we were lied to and now know more, while those who want to leave are not prepared to give up on our stance that the democratic process says we must leave before you can try again and re apply to join. Like it or not, any other way is NOT democratic.
So, come on remainders, how to we re-unite the country is you get your way? So far all I have seen is basically to brush it under the carpet and try to forget it ever happened. That certainly won't work.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:42 pm

David Cameron was inept. He gave the country a choice with only two options, but purposefully put no time or effort into any planning as to how one of the options would be implemented should the electorate vote in "the wrong way". Apparently he banned civil servants from doing any leave preparation.

He took a huge political gamble and now all of us are suffering for it. Seeing as there are so many legal actions surrounding our government at present, perhaps he (Cameron) could be sued. :thumbdown:

For negligence, incompetence and dishonesty - stating he would remain to guide us through the aftermath whatever the result - yeah right :thumbdown:
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

Tamworth matchday programme 26 Nov 2011

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by lo36789 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:18 pm

EDJOHNS wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:30 pm
So, come on remainders, how to we re-unite the country is you get your way? So far all I have seen is basically to brush it under the carpet and try to forget it ever happened. That certainly won't work.
There is no unity. The brexit vote was 52/48 which shows we are quite polarised in opinion. You need a minimum of 50 people in a room before you can get a majority opinion.

Economic prosperity is perhaps the only thing I can see that would resolve anything...as at least there is a chance people can enjoy their lives.

Im not sure what you read or watch but brexit is the most prominent issue that exists. Who is telling you that it is being swept under the carpet or ignored?

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