Democracy under threat.

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EDJOHNS
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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:05 pm

Vokuhila wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:22 pm
Apologies for any misinterpretation on my part, Ed - it just seemed as though you were suggesting he was somehow the root cause of all Germans' supposed predilection for warmongering.

Either way, I'm sure if you just opened your mind a bit you'd probably find that most Germans are actually alright.
I have met and worked with a number of Germans throughout my life. I totally accept many of them are decent people. They have a flaw which, anyone who knows them will know is true. They are brought up to do as told without argument by those in authority. That makes them very easily led by those with ambition.
I also believe strongly that the treaty of Versailles was way over the top and was directly responsible for WW2.

All that said, they have not paid any reparations to countries as ordered at the end of WW2 yet they are demanding far more from these people than is possible for them to bare.

This may shock you. I voted to join the common market and said we should have been in from day 1 where we would have been at the top table making rules rather than be ruled over when we did join. Neither I, nor anyone else from any nation voted to join the EU. This was a concoction of the rich, for the rich, and to make them richer. I could go into a lot of detail, but some would jump and say I am being racist.

Just think about the basic principle of the EU and you will find that, LONG TERM, it is impossible for it to succeed. Countries such as Germany, France and a couple of others are reliant on a strong Euro to get the best prices when they trade. Against that, some countries rely heavily on such as tourism. That very much demands a weak Euro so that you and I can enjoy a good priced holiday. Those countries given "loans" at the formation of the Euro should never and could never be expected to pay back 117% of the GDP every year which in effect was what they have to do.

Again, some will jump and say you are joining the Euro to the EU.Yes I am. Anyone who thinks the aim is to keep them separate for ever is in cloud cuckoo land.
I put up a post yesterday re' an EU army. Merkle is quite clearly determined this will happen as are some of her co-horts. People standing back and saying "We have a veto" are just like Chamberlain with his "Peace in our time" slip of paper.

I said pages back in the post I did not want to give all my reasons for wanting out of the EU, and that remains. Fact is I got so bloody angry at the denial of remainders I said far more than I intended.

The simple bottom line when they argue we did not vote for a "no deal Brexit" That is true. We just voted LEAVE. No if's no and's no but's. LEAVE. You simply can NOT rewrite the meaning of the word Democracy to suite your version. That never has been, and never will be democracy.

Last point. I strongly believe in democracy. If we leave, and 3-6-10 years down the line voted to rejoin, from the date of the result to rejoin, I and many like me would clam up and accept it because that would be the wish of the majority.

EDJOHNS
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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:11 pm

al_quaker wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:33 am
EDJOHNS wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:15 am

They are, and always have been war-like people.
Unlike us Brits of course, who have barely seen a war
Typical answer of those who actually have no answer. Lets change things round so what you say looks different so we can change the discussion and forget your point.

lo36789
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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by lo36789 » Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:09 pm

EDJOHNS wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:05 pm
I have met and worked with a number of Germans throughout my life. I totally accept many of them are decent people. They have a flaw which, anyone who knows them will know is true. They are brought up to do as told without argument by those in authority. That makes them very easily led by those with ambition.
I find any generalisation of an entire nation quite mind boggling to be honest. Possessing these prejudices really does degrade other arguments and it feels somewhat biased.

I mean I take it that since a persons behaviour is inherent based purely on ancestoral actions that makes all of us Brits, I suppose, entitled enslavers?

Surely it goes without saying that we acknowledge that socio-economic factors make huge differences to the way Brits think, act, behave...yet other nations are somehow bundled together as a single stereotype?

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QuakerPete
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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by QuakerPete » Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:34 pm

EDJOHNS wrote:
Vokuhila wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:22 pm
Apologies for any misinterpretation on my part, Ed - it just seemed as though you were suggesting he was somehow the root cause of all Germans' supposed predilection for warmongering.

Either way, I'm sure if you just opened your mind a bit you'd probably find that most Germans are actually alright.
I have met and worked with a number of Germans throughout my life. I totally accept many of them are decent people. They have a flaw which, anyone who knows them will know is true. They are brought up to do as told without argument by those in authority. That makes them very easily led by those with ambition.
I also believe strongly that the treaty of Versailles was way over the top and was directly responsible for WW2.

All that said, they have not paid any reparations to countries as ordered at the end of WW2 yet they are demanding far more from these people than is possible for them to bare.

This may shock you. I voted to join the common market and said we should have been in from day 1 where we would have been at the top table making rules rather than be ruled over when we did join. Neither I, nor anyone else from any nation voted to join the EU. This was a concoction of the rich, for the rich, and to make them richer. I could go into a lot of detail, but some would jump and say I am being racist.

Just think about the basic principle of the EU and you will find that, LONG TERM, it is impossible for it to succeed. Countries such as Germany, France and a couple of others are reliant on a strong Euro to get the best prices when they trade. Against that, some countries rely heavily on such as tourism. That very much demands a weak Euro so that you and I can enjoy a good priced holiday. Those countries given "loans" at the formation of the Euro should never and could never be expected to pay back 117% of the GDP every year which in effect was what they have to do.

Again, some will jump and say you are joining the Euro to the EU.Yes I am. Anyone who thinks the aim is to keep them separate for ever is in cloud cuckoo land.
I put up a post yesterday re' an EU army. Merkle is quite clearly determined this will happen as are some of her co-horts. People standing back and saying "We have a veto" are just like Chamberlain with his "Peace in our time" slip of paper.

I said pages back in the post I did not want to give all my reasons for wanting out of the EU, and that remains. Fact is I got so bloody angry at the denial of remainders I said far more than I intended.

The simple bottom line when they argue we did not vote for a "no deal Brexit" That is true. We just voted LEAVE. No if's no and's no but's. LEAVE. You simply can NOT rewrite the meaning of the word Democracy to suite your version. That never has been, and never will be democracy.

Last point. I strongly believe in democracy. If we leave, and 3-6-10 years down the line voted to rejoin, from the date of the result to rejoin, I and many like me would clam up and accept it because that would be the wish of the majority.
I thought for a moment you were going to do yourself a favour, stop digging and put the spade down. Then out comes the JCB! You said more than you intended, but it actually says *everything* about you.


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DarloOnTheUp
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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by DarloOnTheUp » Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:03 pm

Careful EDJOHNS, you've committed wrongthink. Be prepared for the usual faux-outrage, name-calling, shaming language, and moral grandstanding.

:roll:

lo36789
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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by lo36789 » Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:22 pm

DarloOnTheUp wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:03 pm
Careful EDJOHNS, you've committed wrongthink. Be prepared for the usual faux-outrage, name-calling, shaming language, and moral grandstanding.

:roll:
Ahhh so you agree that modern day Germans are warmongering nazis and that a Merkel speech talking of sharing resources was the equivalent to Hitler invading neighbouring countries and partaking in the odd bit of genocide, or at the very least you don’t think that perspective can be countered or challenged?

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DarloOnTheUp
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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by DarloOnTheUp » Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:34 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:22 pm
DarloOnTheUp wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:03 pm
Careful EDJOHNS, you've committed wrongthink. Be prepared for the usual faux-outrage, name-calling, shaming language, and moral grandstanding.

:roll:
Ahhh so you agree that modern day Germans are warmongering nazis and that a Merkel speech talking of sharing resources was the equivalent to Hitler invading neighbouring countries and partaking in the odd bit of genocide, or at the very least you don’t think that perspective can be countered or challenged?
That isn't what EDJOHNS said, that isn't what I said.

I also didn't say that any perspective can't be challenged.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:38 pm

QuakerPete wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:34 pm
EDJOHNS wrote:
Vokuhila wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:22 pm
Apologies for any misinterpretation on my part, Ed - it just seemed as though you were suggesting he was somehow the root cause of all Germans' supposed predilection for warmongering.

Either way, I'm sure if you just opened your mind a bit you'd probably find that most Germans are actually alright.
I have met and worked with a number of Germans throughout my life. I totally accept many of them are decent people. They have a flaw which, anyone who knows them will know is true. They are brought up to do as told without argument by those in authority. That makes them very easily led by those with ambition.
I also believe strongly that the treaty of Versailles was way over the top and was directly responsible for WW2.

All that said, they have not paid any reparations to countries as ordered at the end of WW2 yet they are demanding far more from these people than is possible for them to bare.

This may shock you. I voted to join the common market and said we should have been in from day 1 where we would have been at the top table making rules rather than be ruled over when we did join. Neither I, nor anyone else from any nation voted to join the EU. This was a concoction of the rich, for the rich, and to make them richer. I could go into a lot of detail, but some would jump and say I am being racist.

Just think about the basic principle of the EU and you will find that, LONG TERM, it is impossible for it to succeed. Countries such as Germany, France and a couple of others are reliant on a strong Euro to get the best prices when they trade. Against that, some countries rely heavily on such as tourism. That very much demands a weak Euro so that you and I can enjoy a good priced holiday. Those countries given "loans" at the formation of the Euro should never and could never be expected to pay back 117% of the GDP every year which in effect was what they have to do.

Again, some will jump and say you are joining the Euro to the EU.Yes I am. Anyone who thinks the aim is to keep them separate for ever is in cloud cuckoo land.
I put up a post yesterday re' an EU army. Merkle is quite clearly determined this will happen as are some of her co-horts. People standing back and saying "We have a veto" are just like Chamberlain with his "Peace in our time" slip of paper.

I said pages back in the post I did not want to give all my reasons for wanting out of the EU, and that remains. Fact is I got so bloody angry at the denial of remainders I said far more than I intended.

The simple bottom line when they argue we did not vote for a "no deal Brexit" That is true. We just voted LEAVE. No if's no and's no but's. LEAVE. You simply can NOT rewrite the meaning of the word Democracy to suite your version. That never has been, and never will be democracy.

Last point. I strongly believe in democracy. If we leave, and 3-6-10 years down the line voted to rejoin, from the date of the result to rejoin, I and many like me would clam up and accept it because that would be the wish of the majority.
I thought for a moment you were going to do yourself a favour, stop digging and put the spade down. Then out comes the JCB! You said more than you intended, but it actually says *everything* about you.


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Actually, you know SFA about me. With all the pontificating going on some of you people really should think more about the issues than try to score cheap points with rather poor, snide sarcasm and innuendo.
If someone generalises, you say post fact and evidence. When you get fact posted in front of you you either ignore or say it is not what it says on the label.
I will really worry what people like you say or what you think about me

Vokuhila
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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Vokuhila » Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:59 pm

For the record, I didn't want to leave the EU at the time of the referendum and still don't, but I've long since accepted that that's what's happening. Brexit is just a noise now - I'm pretty much past caring - and I've never had any issue with anyone expressing their reasons for wanting to leave.

As someone with several German friends and a long-standing affinity for Germany though, I'm going to call someone out on the kind of indisputable Germanophobia that's been demonstrated latterly on this thread, in the same way people are regularly called out on here by others on perceived hypocrisy and the like.

Ed, I'm sure you're probably a decent guy, but this is something I care quite passionately about and I couldn't let what you've written go.
Image

lo36789
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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by lo36789 » Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:55 am

DarloOnTheUp wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:34 pm
That isn't what EDJOHNS said, that isn't what I said.

I also didn't say that any perspective can't be challenged.
EDJOHNS wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:28 pm
“Modern day Germany" not like the Nazi's? Jesus Christ. Take your blinkers off.
EDJOHNS wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:28 pm
I detest the arrogant warmongering bastards with a passion.
EDJOHNS wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:28 pm
she, when talking reminds me so much of Hitler in her mannerisms and gets the same response as he did from the listening hordes.
EDJOHNS wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:28 pm
That post of Frau Merkle talking about an EU army was EXACTLY like the Nazi's times.
DarloOnTheUp wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:34 pm
Be prepared for the usual faux-outrage

Darlogramps
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Democracy under threat.

Post by Darlogramps » Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:46 am

DarloOnTheUp wrote:Careful EDJOHNS, you've committed wrongthink. Be prepared for the usual faux-outrage, name-calling, shaming language, and moral grandstanding.

:roll:
This reply is equally as grim as EDJOHNS’ xenophobia itself.

I’m going to park EDJOHNS’ prejudice. Others have pointed out why his views are pretty despicable. I’ve long since established what he’s like as a person and I’m glad he’s let the mask slip for others too.

But for you to act as an enabler, justifying his prejudices because you dislike the responders’ position on Brexit, that’s equally as bad.

What’s telling is you won’t actually go into detail attempting to justify EDJOHNS’ position. Largely because you can’t.

For the record, calling Germans “arrogant war-mongering bastards”, comparing Merkel to Hitler with no justification, comparing the entire country to Nazi Germany without justification, and saying all Germans have a character defect of subservience are all undeniable examples of xenophobia and prejudice.

There’s also his ignorance on the German immigration stance. He said Germany was refusing to take in any immigrants or refugees, which a blatant falsehood. Indeed Merkel took a major hit politically for accepting so many Syrian refugees. Directly contradictory, but why would EDJOHNS let facts enrich his argument?
If ever you're bored or miserable:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlZohZoadGY

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:15 am

Darlogramps wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:46 am
DarloOnTheUp wrote:Careful EDJOHNS, you've committed wrongthink. Be prepared for the usual faux-outrage, name-calling, shaming language, and moral grandstanding.

:roll:
This reply is equally as grim as EDJOHNS’ xenophobia itself.

I’m going to park EDJOHNS’ prejudice. Others have pointed out why his views are pretty despicable. I’ve long since established what he’s like as a person and I’m glad he’s let the mask slip for others too.

But for you to act as an enabler, justifying his prejudices because you dislike the responders’ position on Brexit, that’s equally as bad.

What’s telling is you won’t actually go into detail attempting to justify EDJOHNS’ position. Largely because you can’t.

For the record, calling Germans “arrogant war-mongering bastards”, comparing Merkel to Hitler with no justification, comparing the entire country to Nazi Germany without justification, and saying all Germans have a character defect of subservience are all undeniable examples of xenophobia and prejudice.

There’s also his ignorance on the German immigration stance. He said Germany was refusing to take in any immigrants or refugees, which a blatant falsehood. Indeed Merkel took a major hit politically for accepting so many Syrian refugees. Directly contradictory, but why would EDJOHNS let facts enrich his argument?
My mask has not slipped.I don't ware 1.

Comparing Merkle to Hitler with no justification. Watch the video posted and as I suggested, watch the mannerisms which you can find on any video of Hitlers speeches are identical.

Saying they have a character defect. Actually I was using the words of Germans I know.

You don't think they are arrogant? Speak to anyone who has holidayed at the same resorts, or better still worked at them and you will find that to be quite accurate.

No blatant falsehood whatever. Go check out the figures allowed by Germany over say the last 10 years compared to so many other countries. You point to the Syrians in particular. Check out how many they took compared to other countries. You will find the number they took far lower, and indeed, you back up my argument by saying she got trouble for allowing the few she did.
For your information, Asylum seekers must BY LAW, be allowed sanctuary in the first safe country they pass through. Why, and how, do you think there are so many Slaves, Poles, Slovenians, Serbs etc and various others from the trying to get into the UK from France? As far as I know France has no border with any such countries. Don't think to hard for the answer, they are being both allowed and "helped" on their way through Germany. Various TV programs such as the Panorama programs on the problem of those waiting to cross the North sea have pointed out.
No doubt in your mind, that is all anti German propaganda.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by al_quaker » Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:20 am

EDJOHNS wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:11 pm
al_quaker wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:33 am
EDJOHNS wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:15 am

They are, and always have been war-like people.
Unlike us Brits of course, who have barely seen a war
Typical answer of those who actually have no answer. Lets change things round so what you say looks different so we can change the discussion and forget your point.
Just because you, in the midst of your xenophobic ramblings, don't understand the point I was making does not mean I have no anwer

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:28 am

al_quaker wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:20 am
EDJOHNS wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:11 pm
al_quaker wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:33 am
EDJOHNS wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:15 am

They are, and always have been war-like people.
Unlike us Brits of course, who have barely seen a war
Typical answer of those who actually have no answer. Lets change things round so what you say looks different so we can change the discussion and forget your point.
Just because you, in the midst of your xenophobic ramblings, don't understand the point I was making does not mean I have no anwer
Nop. What you and your mate Gramps are doing is grabbing onto something you don't like to deflect (yet again), from the only valid point.
The majority voted to leave. Not wait 3 years mess it up and try to get another vote in our favour.
I am sick to death of all the do gooding mamby pamby arse lickers who fall in behind being "Politically correct" and try to undermine anyone who actually has the balls to have and speak out against the mess you are making of the world.
There are more than 1 of your appeaser friends on this post who state that Churchill was a war monger and war criminal.(Thank God he was).
People like you, even if just by staying silent are selling this country short.You may believe what you say, you have far to often been proven to be wrong. Read your history books. By the way, you do know there is a growing movement in Germany that say the holocaust did not happen and it was all propaganda? That in itself should make anyone wary of trusting them.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:37 am

The stupidity of this whole mess is that some comments are forcing me to respond in a manner that makes me look like a British bulldog tattoo'd Britain for the British moron. I am in fact far from that. I have lived and worked in Switzerland, The USA, Israel, Belgium, France, Spain, Italy and a number of others for shorter terms.
I believe in integration and movement of people, and would go along with much of what the EU is about. Go back to the common market I will shut up.
What I am totally against is the UK being ruled by people who do not in any way shape or form, have our best interests at heart.
Not Britain for the British, but Britain RUN by the British.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by loan_star » Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:38 am

lo36789 wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:09 pm
EDJOHNS wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:05 pm
I have met and worked with a number of Germans throughout my life. I totally accept many of them are decent people. They have a flaw which, anyone who knows them will know is true. They are brought up to do as told without argument by those in authority. That makes them very easily led by those with ambition.
I find any generalisation of an entire nation quite mind boggling to be honest. Possessing these prejudices really does degrade other arguments and it feels somewhat biased.

I mean I take it that since a persons behaviour is inherent based purely on ancestoral actions that makes all of us Brits, I suppose, entitled enslavers?

Surely it goes without saying that we acknowledge that socio-economic factors make huge differences to the way Brits think, act, behave...yet other nations are somehow bundled together as a single stereotype?
It seems ok that leavers are generalised as being uneducated.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 81441.html

Imagine the uproar if that had been said about remainers.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by al_quaker » Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:52 am

A few responses.
EDJOHNS wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:28 am
Nop. What you and your mate Gramps are doing is grabbing onto something you don't like to deflect (yet again), from the only valid point.
I happen to disagree with a lot of what darlogramps posts, but we happen to be be on the same side on this, in calling you out as a xenophobe.
EDJOHNS wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:28 am
The majority voted to leave. Not wait 3 years mess it up and try to get another vote in our favour.
I know the majority voted to leave. I was one of them. Doesn't mean I can't call you out for your xenophobia.
EDJOHNS wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:28 am
I am sick to death of all the do gooding mamby pamby arse lickers who fall in behind being "Politically correct" and try to undermine anyone who actually has the balls to have and speak out against the mess you are making of the world.
In my opinion, calling out prejudice does not make me 'politically correct' or a 'do gooding mamby pamny arse licker', but if it does then so be it. I can live with that.
EDJOHNS wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:28 am
There are more than 1 of your appeaser friends on this post who state that Churchill was a war monger and war criminal.(Thank God he was).
I don't think I've ever mentioned Churchill, and quite what relevance he has to you being a xenophobe I've no idea.
EDJOHNS wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:28 am
People like you, even if just by staying silent are selling this country short.You may believe what you say, you have far to often been proven to be wrong.
By calling you out for the xenophobe you are, I'm not staying silent, neither am I selling the country short. I happen to think calling out prejudice is a good thing.
EDJOHNS wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:28 am
Read your history books.
I've read plenty of history books in my time thanks. One benefit of this is that I know xenophobia when I see it. My history books also taught me about the dangers of believing there were "flaws" in a particular group of people too.
EDJOHNS wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:28 am
By the way, you do know there is a growing movement in Germany that say the holocaust did not happen and it was all propaganda? That in itself should make anyone wary of trusting them.
Yes that makes me wary of trusting holocaust deniars. I do not tend to make sweeping genealisations about millions of people based on the actions of a minority.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by lo36789 » Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:06 pm

loan_star wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:38 am
It seems ok that leavers are generalised as being uneducated.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 81441.html

Imagine the uproar if that had been said about remainers.
Not sure what point you are trying to make here?

I think you are actually misunderstanding making generalisations and data modelling. This is saying nothing more than there was a statistically significant trend that university attendees voted remain over leave. I would assume that other variables were considered sto provide constants such as age, demographic, gender, marital status, sexuality etc.

University students tend to also be predominantly white, young (the number of university graduates now is greater than in the past so will be skewed as a younger audience) and not from low-income backgrounds, so unless these bias' have also been removed the data could be showing that these characteristics lead to a remain vote over a brexit vote also.

It is not saying leavers are uneducated. It is simply the outcomes of modelling of source data which showed if you were higher educated (just a term) then you were more likely to have voted remain.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:49 pm

al_quaker wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:52 am
A few responses.
EDJOHNS wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:28 am
Nop. What you and your mate Gramps are doing is grabbing onto something you don't like to deflect (yet again), from the only valid point.
I happen to disagree with a lot of what darlogramps posts, but we happen to be be on the same side on this, in calling you out as a xenophobe.
EDJOHNS wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:28 am
The majority voted to leave. Not wait 3 years mess it up and try to get another vote in our favour.
I know the majority voted to leave. I was one of them. Doesn't mean I can't call you out for your xenophobia.
EDJOHNS wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:28 am
I am sick to death of all the do gooding mamby pamby arse lickers who fall in behind being "Politically correct" and try to undermine anyone who actually has the balls to have and speak out against the mess you are making of the world.
In my opinion, calling out prejudice does not make me 'politically correct' or a 'do gooding mamby pamny arse licker', but if it does then so be it. I can live with that.
EDJOHNS wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:28 am
There are more than 1 of your appeaser friends on this post who state that Churchill was a war monger and war criminal.(Thank God he was).
I don't think I've ever mentioned Churchill, and quite what relevance he has to you being a xenophobe I've no idea.
EDJOHNS wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:28 am
People like you, even if just by staying silent are selling this country short.You may believe what you say, you have far to often been proven to be wrong.
By calling you out for the xenophobe you are, I'm not staying silent, neither am I selling the country short. I happen to think calling out prejudice is a good thing.
EDJOHNS wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:28 am
Read your history books.
I've read plenty of history books in my time thanks. One benefit of this is that I know xenophobia when I see it. My history books also taught me about the dangers of believing there were "flaws" in a particular group of people too.
EDJOHNS wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:28 am
By the way, you do know there is a growing movement in Germany that say the holocaust did not happen and it was all propaganda? That in itself should make anyone wary of trusting them.
Yes that makes me wary of trusting holocaust deniars. I do not tend to make sweeping genealisations about millions of people based on the actions of a minority.
Repeating a word a number of times may make it a fact in your mind.It actually does not make it fact in reality.
Repeatedly you deflect from posted FACT by throwing mud.

Who was it a couple of pages ago said there can be no EU army because we have a veto?
Have you watched the video of Merkle saying that must happen as a way forward?
But hey, we can veto it much like Germany signed an agreement after WW1 to restrict their army to home duty and not get involved in other nations politics. No problem.We had a veto.
The German navy could not build ships over a regulated tonnage. (10,000 tonnes after Versailles upgraded in 1935 with Britain alone but not to exceed 35% of the British Navy's capacity). No problem, we have a veto so they will stick to it ..... Terpitz, Bismark.
Do you want to start on U boats? Not much point me putting up the figures you will only dissimulate behind your prevarication, but easy enough for you to check out they had over 100 more than they were allowed because we had a veto on them building more.

How anyone who says they have read anything on history can say they are not worried simply beggars belief.
"It won't happen because we have a veto. It would be laughable if it were not so serious.

Now just set off again ignoring the FACTS I have printed here and hide behind childish name calling.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by al_quaker » Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:56 pm

No - your postings supply all the evidence needed to make it a fact (or should that be FACT) that you are, quite clearly, a xenophobe.

I don't think I've mentioned the EU army. Yes I have watched the video, no it does not remind me of Nazi germany. I'm not sure why you are bringing up the veto. I'm no fan of the EU, hence why I voted to leave. I don't like ever closer union. I don't like supranational decision making. I don't like the democratic deficits. I could go on. But none of this stuff has any bearing on you being a xenophobe.

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Democracy under threat.

Post by Darlogramps » Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:08 pm

EDJOHNS wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:15 am
Saying they have a character defect. Actually I was using the words of Germans I know.
Prove it. Despite you saying you "I detest the arrogant warmongering bastards with a passion", seemingly you're now claiming you have German confidants who admit to personal defects to you.
I'm calling bullshit. Like I say, prove it.
EDJOHNS wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:15 am
You don't think they are arrogant? Speak to anyone who has holidayed at the same resorts, or better still worked at them and you will find that to be quite accurate.
Seemingly Vokuhila doesn't believe that. So who's right, him or you? And is the only way to judge an entire nation's character through anecdotal recollections from holiday resorts? Crikey you're small-minded.
EDJOHNS wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:15 am
No blatant falsehood whatever. Go check out the figures allowed by Germany over say the last 10 years compared to so many other countries. You point to the Syrians in particular. Check out how many they took compared to other countries. You will find the number they took far lower.
Actual blatant falsehoods, right there. And I can prove it.

Here from UNICEF - Germany accepted the most child refugees from Syria in the last few years: https://www.unicef.org/eca/emergencies/ ... t-children

And here: Going back to 2014 Germany resettled considerably more Syrian refugees than any other developed nation: https://www.statista.com/chart/1862/syr ... ettlement/

And here's Germany again leading the way in granting asylum to refugees:
https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistic ... and_Greece

So plenty there to comprehensively disprove your lies. Now, you've claimed to the contrary, so I'd like to see your information please. Can you back yourself up?
EDJOHNS wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:15 am
and indeed, you back up my argument by saying she got trouble for allowing the few she did.
Hang on, first you compared Merkel to Hitler. Now you concede she accepted large numbers of immigrants to her own detriment. Two directly contradictory statements. Which is it?

Nor does it even back you up. All it proves is Germany has anti-immigration populists, but so do other countries including the UK. We had the BNP (now rebadged as UKIP), and UKIP (now rebadged as the Brexit Party). Austria had fascists in government. Italy has hard-right populists in coalition government. Brazil has a self-proclaimed fascist as its president. Indeed Donald Trump's policies are at the very least hard-right. France and Austria had far right presidential run-off candidates.

The rise in right wing populism is not a purely German phenomenon. You claiming it is is more evidence of your xenophobia.
EDJOHNS wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:15 am
My mask has not slipped.I don't ware 1.
"Ware 1" - dear me.

EDJOHNS wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:15 am
I am sick to death of all the do gooding mamby pamby arse lickers who fall in behind being "Politically correct" and try to undermine anyone who actually has the balls to have and speak out against the mess you are making of the world.
It's not namby-pamby or politically correct to call out your xenophobia. I am sick to death of elderly bigots demonising entire groups of people based on your own prejudices. I'm sick to death of xenophobes playing the victim when their own ignorance is called out.

You have not posted any facts whatsoever. Ill-informed ignorance, but not facts.

The fact is the only people making a mess of the world are people like you. Your failure to accept and tolerate other nationality's differences, your fear of people not like you and your demonisation of people you don't understand is the greatest threat to society.
EDJOHNS wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:28 am

Now just set off again ignoring the FACTS I have printed here and hide behind childish name calling.
Yet you’re quite happy to do the same yourself. In this thread alone you’ve called people fascists, nazis, war-mongering bastards and so on.

In the past you’ve been happy to call many people on here names, including myself. Yet you complain when people, with justification, call you a xenophobe.
If ever you're bored or miserable:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlZohZoadGY

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:02 pm


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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by lo36789 » Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:29 pm

Army says Britain needs an Army shocker

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:51 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:29 pm
Army says Britain needs an Army shocker
While remainders would never put up people with a biased opinion would they?

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by OHDFC » Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:16 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QKThwfb5iA

"Now sit down and don't say another word"

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by DarloOnTheUp » Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:43 pm

Jesus, this really kicked off whilst I've been at work. Shame the Brexit thread had to be derailed like this.

EDJOHNS expressed an opinion, and backed it up with evidence. If you disagree with the opinion, then fine, disagree with it. But do so by disputing the opinion and the presented evidence. Instead what's happened is he's been shamed and had his character attacked, and mine too for daring to defend him.

This happens all too often these days, particularly by the left, but has the following issues:
1) It shuts down the conversation. There may be some truth in what someone is saying but how will we know if it's not discussed? If someone has a genuine concern, but when they express it, they’re shut down, that concern doesn’t magically go away. Then the next person with the same concern doesn’t dare even say anything, so nothing gets solved.

2) Said person is now tainted, and anything they say in the future is dismissed out of hand. For example, I've heard a few people state how much they hate Donald Trump, and when I ask why, they say because he's racist and sexist. So it doesn't matter what Trump says or does, he has been declared a racist and a sexist by this person and that's all that matters. This was a singular opinion on a singular issue, yet apparently it makes everything else null and void, and that's not even getting into whether these labels are accurate or not. It’s as if being called one of these disparaging labels is the worst thing in the world, nothing else matters, there’s no redemption.

3) Certain opinions and topics are off limit, and certain groups cannot be criticised without censure. For example, criticise Islam and you're called an Islamaphobe, criticise women and you're called a sexist, criticise immigration and you're called a racist, even if your criticisms are valid. Other groups are fine to criticise though, just make sure you criticise the right ones.

4) There's no gradation, nuance, or distinction between varying levels: everything is black and white. For instance, there's a difference between saying "Germans are historically war-mongering/Merkel's speech sounded like Hitler's speech" and "all Germans must be wiped off the face of the planet" (not that anybody said that, but I was just trying to use an extreme example). It's a bit like with #metoo where an inappropriate sexual comment gets lumped together with sexual assault. Or a politically incorrect joke about race gets lumped together with racially aggravated assault. These things are not comparable. There has to be some distinction.

5) These terms are thrown around so much that we end up in a boy cries wolf situation where they lose all meaning and it’s difficult to take them seriously anymore.

Anyways, just thought I’d try to bring a bit of sanity back to the hysterics.

If you disagree with anything I’ve said then fine, but attack the argument, not my character.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:32 pm


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Democracy under threat.

Post by Darlogramps » Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:10 am

DarloOnTheUp wrote:Jesus, this really kicked off whilst I've been at work. Shame the Brexit thread had to be derailed like this.

EDJOHNS expressed an opinion, and backed it up with evidence. If you disagree with the opinion, then fine, disagree with it. But do so by disputing the opinion and the presented evidence. Instead what's happened is he's been shamed and had his character attacked, and mine too for daring to defend him.

This happens all too often these days, particularly by the left, but has the following issues:
1) It shuts down the conversation. There may be some truth in what someone is saying but how will we know if it's not discussed? If someone has a genuine concern, but when they express it, they’re shut down, that concern doesn’t magically go away. Then the next person with the same concern doesn’t dare even say anything, so nothing gets solved.

2) Said person is now tainted, and anything they say in the future is dismissed out of hand. For example, I've heard a few people state how much they hate Donald Trump, and when I ask why, they say because he's racist and sexist. So it doesn't matter what Trump says or does, he has been declared a racist and a sexist by this person and that's all that matters. This was a singular opinion on a singular issue, yet apparently it makes everything else null and void, and that's not even getting into whether these labels are accurate or not. It’s as if being called one of these disparaging labels is the worst thing in the world, nothing else matters, there’s no redemption.

3) Certain opinions and topics are off limit, and certain groups cannot be criticised without censure. For example, criticise Islam and you're called an Islamaphobe, criticise women and you're called a sexist, criticise immigration and you're called a racist, even if your criticisms are valid. Other groups are fine to criticise though, just make sure you criticise the right ones.

4) There's no gradation, nuance, or distinction between varying levels: everything is black and white. For instance, there's a difference between saying "Germans are historically war-mongering/Merkel's speech sounded like Hitler's speech" and "all Germans must be wiped off the face of the planet" (not that anybody said that, but I was just trying to use an extreme example). It's a bit like with #metoo where an inappropriate sexual comment gets lumped together with sexual assault. Or a politically incorrect joke about race gets lumped together with racially aggravated assault. These things are not comparable. There has to be some distinction.

5) These terms are thrown around so much that we end up in a boy cries wolf situation where they lose all meaning and it’s difficult to take them seriously anymore.

Anyways, just thought I’d try to bring a bit of sanity back to the hysterics.

If you disagree with anything I’ve said then fine, but attack the argument, not my character.
1. No one attacked your character.

2. EDJOHNS may have an opinion but he’s certainly not provided evidence. And now his blatant lies have been found out, he’s gone rather quiet on responding. I’m still waiting for him to provide evidence to back up his claims on Germany not accepting Syrian refugees.

3. Absolutely people went after EDJOHNS character, because his stereotyping of an entire nation based on his own self-confessed prejudices is xenophobia. His opinions were a reflection of his character.

4. You’ve said people criticising EDJOHNS are hysterical. In what way is that not an Ad Hominem attack on people’s character? Practise what you preach.

5. EDJOHNS launched attacks on the character of 83 million people, but that’s acceptable to you. But as soon as people question someone whose political views are seemingly closely aligned to yours, you decry that as unacceptable. That’s outright hypocrisy on your part.

6. You yourself haven’t provided any sort of justification for your defence of EDJOHNS’ views and prejudices. Only victim-playing which is a typical tactic of people who can’t defend an opinion.

There’s been no unjustified shaming or character assassinations. Only criticism of someone who has attacked an entire nation with no justification. The criticism of that is perfectly valid.

By all means present opinions. But if you stereotype an entire nation without any form of evidence, then I’m sorry, you can’t expect not to receive criticism.
If ever you're bored or miserable:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlZohZoadGY

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:03 am

I did not respond because as I have told you before, I am not prepared to get into your petty squabbles when all you do is enlarge and repeat so often until you browbeat people.
I have posted video evidence to back up what I said, prior to, not at, your behest.

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Democracy under threat.

Post by Darlogramps » Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:27 am

EDJOHNS wrote:I would suggest a trip to an optician. I have posted video proof of much of what I said. You apparently can't see it.
I’ve seen the videos. None of them are evidence for your view, just biased people restating their opinions. Must try harder.
EDJOHNS wrote: You say I launch an attack on 83 million people.

Top of the page, ... "I have met and worked with a number of Germans throughout my life. I totally accept many of them are decent people. They have a flaw which, anyone who knows them will know is true. They are brought up to do as told without argument by those in authority. That makes them very easily led by those with ambition.
I also believe strongly that the treaty of Versailles was way over the top and was directly responsible for WW2."

Would suggest that as usual, you are blowing up what was said and meant and then repeating your mantra to try to prove yourself correct.
You also said: “I detest the arrogant warmongering bastards with a passion” and compared the current nation with Nazi Germany. And you said all Germans have a personality defect, something you’ve just repeated.

Care to explain how that isn’t an attack on the entire nation?

I’m also still waiting for your evidence that Germany refused to accept Syrian refugees. If you can’t provide it, we’ll take it that it doesn’t exist and you were telling lies.
EDJOHNS wrote: Much as when I said I have never been a violent person you turned that round to me admitting being violent because I said I wasn't .
More lies. What you actually said was “I’m not a violent man, but that man makes my blood boil.” I’ve got the link if you want to see it.

Interesting how you deleted the caveat about your violence. If someone isn’t a violent person, they wouldn’t add a caveat. Indeed, they wouldn’t bring violence into it all.
EDJOHNS wrote: You really are not worth worrying about, especially as I am 100% sure you would not have the balls to meet up with me and repeat a fraction of what you say from behind your keyboard. If I am wrong, let me know when and where, and I will even pay for the coffee.
Clearly I am worth worrying about, as you’ve just spent this post trying to go after my character.

What’s interesting is that completely trashes the defence DOTU made of you. After he said for people to attack arguments not character, you’ve just done exactly the opposite. Bravo Edward.

Moreover, when challenged on your lack of evidence and justification, you’ve failed to provide anything to support your opinions (see the Syrian refugees point). You can try and make it about me if you want, but it’s a poor tactic to deflect from your own shortcomings.

Instead, if you want to emerge with any credit, try properly answering the shortcomings in your argument. For instance:

1. Provide some actual proof to back up your opinions on Germans and their alleged personality flaws. (And not unexplained videos from biased sources)

2. Let’s see something to justify your claims about Germany and Syrian refugees, or we’ll take it your remarks were factually untrue.

3. Explain how calling all Germans “arrogant warmongering bastards” and saying they all have a personality defect is not attacking an entire nation’s character.
Last edited by Darlogramps on Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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