Democracy under threat.

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Darlogramps
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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Darlogramps » Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:32 am

EDJOHNS wrote:I did not respond because as I have told you before, I am not prepared to get into your petty squabbles when all you do is enlarge and repeat so often until you browbeat people.
I have posted video evidence to back up what I said, prior to, not at, your behest.
Ah interesting- you’ve deleted your entire character assassination attempt on me!

Fortunately people can read the original in my quotes.

The reason you haven’t responded is because you haven’t got any evidence and you don’t have the guts to admit it. Just like most hard-right bully boys, you back down and play the victim when properly scrutinised. Those videos provide no justification for your opinions on Germans and their supposed character flaws.

You can deflect all you like, attempt to play the victim all you like. But we’ve established conclusively now you have no evidence and justifications for your own blatant xenophobia.
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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:11 pm

Darlogramps wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:32 am
EDJOHNS wrote:I did not respond because as I have told you before, I am not prepared to get into your petty squabbles when all you do is enlarge and repeat so often until you browbeat people.
I have posted video evidence to back up what I said, prior to, not at, your behest.
Ah interesting- you’ve deleted your entire character assassination attempt on me!

Fortunately people can read the original in my quotes.

The reason you haven’t responded is because you haven’t got any evidence and you don’t have the guts to admit it. Just like most hard-right bully boys, you back down and play the victim when properly scrutinised. Those videos provide no justification for your opinions on Germans and their supposed character flaws.

You can deflect all you like, attempt to play the victim all you like. But we’ve established conclusively now you have no evidence and justifications for your own blatant xenophobia.
Is everything in life about you? Character assassination? Just WTF are you on?

I took it down simply because I can't be arsed with your constant "I am right and I will change what you said to show it"

"Fortunately" people can read the original. Nop, they can read the bits you edited in.

Which bit of Merkle demanding a EU army to have overall power is not evidence of her and others like her determination to go that route?

Which part of the video's do not show her demeanour to be the same as Hitlers when giving a speech?

Which part of the subservient adoring looks on the peoples faces differs in any way from those of the people at the Nuremberg rallies?

Cut the crap point scoring attempt at superiority and answer my points I will then happily go back and fine total evidence of what I have said.

As things stand, no matter what is posted you dismiss without even thinking about it let alone replying so there is no point whatever in trying to discuss anything with you, but then, I have said this before, and all you will do is come back with more crying that I am picking on you and "assassinating" your credibility.

No need for me to do so. You have done so yourself with your rambling "poor me stop picking on me" attitude.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by al_quaker » Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:39 pm

EDJOHNS wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:11 pm


Which part of the video's do not show her demeanour to be the same as Hitlers when giving a speech?

Which part of the subservient adoring looks on the peoples faces differs in any way from those of the people at the Nuremberg rallies?
None of it in my opinion. I would suggest only a xenophobe would draw such conclusions.

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Democracy under threat.

Post by Darlogramps » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:12 pm

EDJOHNS wrote:
Darlogramps wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:32 am
EDJOHNS wrote:I did not respond because as I have told you before, I am not prepared to get into your petty squabbles when all you do is enlarge and repeat so often until you browbeat people.
I have posted video evidence to back up what I said, prior to, not at, your behest.
Ah interesting- you’ve deleted your entire character assassination attempt on me!

Fortunately people can read the original in my quotes.

The reason you haven’t responded is because you haven’t got any evidence and you don’t have the guts to admit it. Just like most hard-right bully boys, you back down and play the victim when properly scrutinised. Those videos provide no justification for your opinions on Germans and their supposed character flaws.

You can deflect all you like, attempt to play the victim all you like. But we’ve established conclusively now you have no evidence and justifications for your own blatant xenophobia.
Is everything in life about you? Character assassination? Just WTF are you on?

I took it down simply because I can't be arsed with your constant "I am right and I will change what you said to show it"

"Fortunately" people can read the original. Nop, they can read the bits you edited in.

Which bit of Merkle demanding a EU army to have overall power is not evidence of her and others like her determination to go that route?

Which part of the video's do not show her demeanour to be the same as Hitlers when giving a speech?

Which part of the subservient adoring looks on the peoples faces differs in any way from those of the people at the Nuremberg rallies?

Cut the crap point scoring attempt at superiority and answer my points I will then happily go back and fine total evidence of what I have said.

As things stand, no matter what is posted you dismiss without even thinking about it let alone replying so there is no point whatever in trying to discuss anything with you, but then, I have said this before, and all you will do is come back with more crying that I am picking on you and "assassinating" your credibility.

No need for me to do so. You have done so yourself with your rambling "poor me stop picking on me" attitude.
Blah, blah, blah - Gramps is awful, yada,yada, yada. All very tedious. Typical tactics from a bigot who can’t justify his opinion.

But you have still not provided any evidence.
I’ve watched the Merkel video. It does nothing to support your assertions that she is behaving like Hitler and the Nazis. There are no subservient looks from the crowd.
That’s your own xenophobic prejudices speaking I’m afraid. If you want subservient adoring faces, I suggest you look at videos of Tommy Robinson and his fanboys. You probably attend his rallies anyway.

Moreover, do you really think one short video sums up a nation of 83 million people? Is that seriously an argument you’re trying to forward?

So I’ve answered your points - now answer those I raised before. Or are you too much of a coward to do so?

1. Provide some actual proof to back up your opinions on Germans and their alleged personality flaws. (And not unexplained videos from biased sources)

2. Let’s see something to justify your claims about Germany and Syrian refugees, or we’ll take it your remarks were factually untrue.

3. Explain how calling all Germans “arrogant warmongering bastards” and saying they all have a personality defect is not attacking an entire nation’s character.

Three points - can you answer them? Or will you waffle and deflect as usual?
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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:37 pm

Blah, blah, blah - Gramps is awful, yada,yada, yada. All very tedious. Typical tactics from a bigot who can’t justify his opinion.


The end.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:39 pm

Ps, you can't answer my comments. You choose to simply ignore and pretend you have "answered" them. Simply can't be arsed any more so back to not being able to see your comments.
There you go, you can now have a few more pathetic childish digs.

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Democracy under threat.

Post by Darlogramps » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:58 pm

EDJOHNS wrote:Ps, you can't answer my comments. You choose to simply ignore and pretend you have "answered" them. Simply can't be arsed any more so back to not being able to see your comments.
There you go, you can now have a few more pathetic childish digs.
I have answered it. The evidence you’ve presented doesn’t, in the view of myself and others, back up the point you’re making. You might dislike that, but tough.

And now you can’t answer mine, so you’re doing everything to dodge the question. It’s the behaviour of a coward. And that’s how all you far-right thugs behave when challenged with intelligent counter arguments.

1. You have failed to justify why you think Merkel is behaving like a Nazi.

2. You’ve failed to provide evidence for all Germans having a character defect, beyond your own opinion.

3. You’ve failed to provide any evidence for Germans refusing to accept Syrian refugees, despite being asked four times to do so. That’s despite me providing much evidence for the contrary, something else you failed to acknowledge.

That’s a pretty comprehensive rout of your spineless woeful, xenophobic argument.
Last edited by Darlogramps on Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by QuakerPete » Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:34 pm

EDJOHNS wrote:
Darlogramps wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:32 am
EDJOHNS wrote:I did not respond because as I have told you before, I am not prepared to get into your petty squabbles when all you do is enlarge and repeat so often until you browbeat people.
I have posted video evidence to back up what I said, prior to, not at, your behest.
Ah interesting- you’ve deleted your entire character assassination attempt on me!

Fortunately people can read the original in my quotes.

The reason you haven’t responded is because you haven’t got any evidence and you don’t have the guts to admit it. Just like most hard-right bully boys, you back down and play the victim when properly scrutinised. Those videos provide no justification for your opinions on Germans and their supposed character flaws.

You can deflect all you like, attempt to play the victim all you like. But we’ve established conclusively now you have no evidence and justifications for your own blatant xenophobia.
Is everything in life about you? Character assassination? Just WTF are you on?

I took it down simply because I can't be arsed with your constant "I am right and I will change what you said to show it"

"Fortunately" people can read the original. Nop, they can read the bits you edited in.

Which bit of Merkle demanding a EU army to have overall power is not evidence of her and others like her determination to go that route?

Which part of the video's do not show her demeanour to be the same as Hitlers when giving a speech?

Which part of the subservient adoring looks on the peoples faces differs in any way from those of the people at the Nuremberg rallies?

Cut the crap point scoring attempt at superiority and answer my points I will then happily go back and fine total evidence of what I have said.

As things stand, no matter what is posted you dismiss without even thinking about it let alone replying so there is no point whatever in trying to discuss anything with you, but then, I have said this before, and all you will do is come back with more crying that I am picking on you and "assassinating" your credibility.

No need for me to do so. You have done so yourself with your rambling "poor me stop picking on me" attitude.
This is real delusional stuff - and all that time I thought the discussions on here had been about the EU!


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DarloOnTheUp
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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by DarloOnTheUp » Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:25 pm

Great, absolutely great. This thread has turned into absolute gold. And it turns out my previous couple of posts were correct as well (they've clearly went over all of your heads though, never mind).

EDJOHNS says something which is declared "xenophobic" by a few. The conversation is then shut down, his character is attacked, he's now tainted and nothing else he says or does matters (as shown by Darlogramps bringing this nonsense into a rugby thread FFS).

I've read back what he said and it's being blown way out of proportion (as I stated, the correct term is hysterics). Of course it doesn't matter though as there's no distinction between varying levels: a xenophobe is a xenophobe and that's all that matters. It also doesn't matter how true the label is: he is one, as decided by someone, and that's the end of it.

And before you start, I'm not "playing the victim as I can't defend an opinion", I'm just fed up of seeing this same thing again and again, particularly by the left.

Also, to quote myself from the rugby thread:
DarloOnTheUp wrote:So moral, so caring, until someone goes against the narrative or has the wrong opinion (as decided by the opinion gods). Then it all goes out of the window.

As I said before, if the left didn't have double standards, they'd have no standards at all.

I'd like to point out as well that you threw a hissy fit in the other thread because he generalised about Germans (I bet the entire German nation are delighted that you're here to defend their honour and get offended on their behalf). Yet here you are, generalising about right-wingers. As I said, double standards.

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Democracy under threat.

Post by Darlogramps » Tue Sep 24, 2019 10:07 pm

DarloOnTheUp wrote: I've read back what he said and it's being blown way out of proportion (as I stated, the correct term is hysterics). Of course it doesn't matter though as there's no distinction between varying levels: a xenophobe is a xenophobe and that's all that matters. It also doesn't matter how true the label is: he is one, as decided by someone, and that's the end of it.
Ah well, there we go. All hail DOTU, the great decider. If he states something is blown out of proportion, it must be true.

Come on then, why is it out proportion? You’ve set yourself up now so follow through. I’d love to see your defence of EDJOHNS’ statements.

Presumably you can justify “I detest the arrogant warmongering bastards” as a statement can you? Or perhaps the suggestion that all Germans have a character defect?
DarloOnTheUp wrote: And before you start, I'm not "playing the victim as I can't defend an opinion", I'm just fed up of seeing this same thing again and again, particularly by the left.
No, you are playing the victim card. It’s exactly what you’re doing. It’s a tactic used by all political wings when they’re under pressure. Rather than construct a counter argument based on facts and evidence, they just scream about how horrendous the other side is.

There’s literally examples of it in this thread. For instance, EDJOHNS states Germany refused to accept Syrian refugees. I provide indisputable evidence to the contrary and challenge him to support his view. Rather than back himself up or admit he was wrong, instead he ignores, deflects and plays the victim.

I’m fed up of seeing this tactic used time and time again to shut down legitimate criticism. If you stereotype an entire nation with negative views which you cannot justify, don’t throw a paddy when people criticise you.

That’s the great irony and hypocrisy here, you’re the one trying to shut down debate, not anyone else.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by DarloOnTheUp » Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:40 am

I'll reply to both posts in here, but I feel we're going in circles now, and I don't want to get into a pointless slanging match. I'll try and explain myself a bit more though but I know how difficult it is to persuade someone who's set in their ways (myself included). You also called me intelligent: well aye, it takes intelligence to understand nuance, to see things how they really are, and to go against the crowd, which I feel is what's needed here. Of course, the ignorant person is ignorant because they don't know they're ignorant, so maybe I'm just a thicko and but haven't realised it.

First off, evidence of your generalisation of right-wingers: you generalised Tommy Robinson supporters as being all the same, you referred to "far-right thugs" which is a double generalisation: that far-right people are all thugs, and that anyone on the right must be far-right (that's a common tactic used by media organisations where they declare certain people to be far-right, even when they're not, as a way to smear them), and you insinuated that they lack intelligence and are cowards.

I feel this point is worth making again as well (apologies for the copy and paste): so moral, so caring, until someone goes against the narrative or has the wrong opinion (as decided by the opinion gods). Then it all goes out of the window. The gloves are off, the knives are out, no mercy. If the left didn't have double standards, they'd have no standards at all. I'd also like to point out that you threw a hissy fit in the other thread because he generalised about Germans. Yet here you are, generalising about right-wingers. As I said, double standards.

Now onto EDJOHNS comments: I'm not saying you can't disagree with someone or challenge their views. In fact, I respect people who are willing to challenge views they don't agree with and that's exactly what I've been doing in this entire thread. But what's being played these days is a dangerous game, and it's one I see too often. Someone has an opinion or says/does something, it's declared as wrong, said person is given a negative label such as racist or whatever, they're then tried and hanged in the court of public opinion, their character is destroyed with the use of shaming language, the conversation is shut down, and people are therefore constantly treading on eggshells as nobody knows what's OK and what's not OK to say. Call it political correctness, call it censorship, whatever. The law of unintended consequences springs to mind as it has the knock-on effect of making people scared of talking about certain things, certain opinions/topics are absolutely not allowed, certain groups cannot be criticised/made fun of/commented on (whilst others are fair game), there's no distinction between varying levels (someone's either a racist or not, there's no in-between), and all of this is used as a political weapon on a regular basis, usually by the left. There's different rules for different people as well which brings us back to the double standards (an example of this is the soft bigotry of low expectations, where certain groups are held to different standards than others on the basis of their group identity).

Furthermore, it's one opinion on a singular issue, yet apparently it's the only thing that matters (for instance, you questioned why Darlo_Pete would talk to EDJOHNS about rugby after YOU decided he was a certain label). And this brings me onto my next point: who decides? In this case, it was you who decided, not Darlo_Pete. Sometimes it's the media, other times it's a particular group. What about if the state decided? The whole thing (including the paragraph above) is very 1984. 1984 was supposed to be a warning, not an instruction manual.

And as I said, his comments were blown way out of proportion. It is possible for different cultures to have, generally speaking, different ways of being and thinking. For example, I know that Americans are brought up to respect their parents, more so than in Britain (you could go around all the cultures in the world and find numerous examples of these). These cultural differences aren't defects, as you insinuated, and pointing them out doesn't automatically make you a xenophobe. Of course, the person making the claim may be mistaken, which is why you question the evidence, and not just revert to hysterics and character assassinations. Moreover, generalisations aren't necessarily evil either and can be quite useful, if accurate. For instance, generally speaking, men tend to be more competitive/taller/and physically stronger than women. Pointing that out doesn't make me a sexist even though I made a generalisation. As stated though: if you disagree then fine, but attack the evidence.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Darlo_Pete » Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:27 am

Can we get back to the subject in hand please? Where are on earth do we go from here? Probably a general election is the only way there is of a chance of sorting this mess out. But will the result be conclusive? I very much doubt it & then we'll be in a right pickle.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by lo36789 » Wed Sep 25, 2019 6:28 am

Darlo_Pete wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:27 am
Can we get back to the subject in hand please? Where are on earth do we go from here? Probably a general election is the only way there is of a chance of sorting this mess out. But will the result be conclusive? I very much doubt it & then we'll be in a right pickle.
Yep this is exactly where we go.

If a result is not conclusive then what does that tell you Pete. I’ve been told on this thread for 3 years that a desire to Brexit regardless of the cost is the undisputed, conclusive will of the people.

The Tories and Brexit Party will have that on their manifesto. Lib Dem’s and SNP will have revoke Article 50 and remain. Labour it looks likely will go for a second referendum.

Whoever comes out on top in a GE that is the latest indication of the will of the people, it will be based on what is known now for instance primarily what the leave options actually are (not promises or project fear) - this is what wasn’t know 3 years ago.

There are no gimmicks here. If a brexit with no deal is what people were happy to vote for 3 years ago then Tory & Brexit Party will come out on top.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by al_quaker » Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:36 am

DarloOnTheUp wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:40 am
These cultural differences aren't defects, as you insinuated, and pointing them out doesn't automatically make you a xenophobe.
On this point, it was EDJOHNS who referred to 'character flaws ' in the Germans.
EDJOHNS wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:05 pm
They have a flaw which, anyone who knows them will know is true.
On xenophobia, I would argue statements such as
EDJOHNS wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:12 pm
I detest the arrogant warmongering bastards with a passion.
and
EDJOHNS wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:12 pm
I detest them as a race
as made on the rugby thread are pretty clear evidence that EDJOHNS is a xenophobe. Others are entitled to disagree of course, although I would struggle to see their logic. I don't think calling out the xenophobia in comments such as those I've quoted are blowing things out of proportion. Different cultures are generally different, and an acknowledgement of that is not xenophobia, far from it. But that is not what was said. EDJOHNS said they 'detest them as a race'.

EDJOHNS is entitled to their views on the EU - I happen to agree with some of them, but that is a completely separate point to, what is to me, his clear xenophobia. And I make no apologies for calling it out.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Darlo_Pete » Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:36 pm

Why does Labour want to have a 2 choice second referendum, to either vote for the deal offered or to remain, why are they not asking if people want to leave without a deal?

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:46 pm

I actually have no problem with people not liking my feelings towards the German race. My opinion, built via my dealings over many year with various of the race. I have Good friends in Poland. I have friends I would not go a week without talking to in Hungary and various other countries.
I have not in my working life from the mid 60's to 2012 when I retired found 1 German I would like to go for a drink with. Like it or not, that is a simple fact. I do not get on with them.
I did say on a number of occasions prior to stating my loathing that I could say a lot more but choose not to. Like it or not, I have no need whatever to give reasons for my feelings.
I do find it rather hypocritical that some that choose to berate me seem to think it is OK to call every single person from Hartlepools a 6 fingered inbred, dog shagging, etc, etc, etc. And no, there really is no difference in such generalisations.

This whole post is about Brexit. For or against. We have reached such a sad point when the entire country are at each others throats in such a manner.

I had to go for physiotherapy this morning and when I returned home there was a program on TV,(I had left it on for my dog while out), and seemingly there were a load of school kids all shouting and rioting in class. On further watching, (it was about 11-45am), it was actually OUR mp's all STILL playing a point scoring game v the other side as soon as they were allowed to re'sit. My God, I actually watch parliament on the odd occasion when they debate something I have a particular interest in and bluntly there is more chance of getting things done when half of them are asleep.
No less than the Attorney General taking childish swipes at anyone and everyone, and the Speaker simply smirking and showing his contempt for those he is in place to keep in check.

"
Whoever comes out on top in a GE that is the latest indication of the will of the people, it will be based on what is known now for instance primarily what the leave options actually are (not promises or project fear) - this is what wasn’t know 3 years ago.

There are no gimmicks here. If a brexit with no deal is what people were happy to vote for 3 years ago then Tory & Brexit Party will come out on top.

Higher up the post Lo 36789 wrote,
"There are no gimmicks here. If a brexit with no deal is what people were happy to vote for 3 years ago then Tory & Brexit Party will come out on top."

Not 1 person voted 3 years ago for a "No deal" Brexit. That choice was not on the ballot paper I put my mark on. Anyone else see it?

The fact that Cameron and his minions read the public thinking so wrongly when they offered the referendum is totally what got us into this mess in the first place.
As I have said previously, I voted to join the common market, I had no idea it would lead to what we now have. Had I any idea of what it would become I would have run a mile and voted a total NO. Do we get a re-vote on joining the common market because we were clearly lied to at the time?

Leave aside my dislike of Germany for 1 second. I believe that people are served best by LOCAL representation by people who know what the region requires, example, People in London have no idea how bad roads are in Northumberland. I am 100% sure if the decision were taken locally the people here would find more for roads and cut other area's.(That is just 1 easy to understand example).
In the recent past we, the UK have gone some way towards a more local governance with both Scotland and Wales having their own house and deciding where part of "their" money goes, while at the same time we are going further away from it by being in the EU.

Having lived and worked at some point in Switzerland, Belgium, France, Germany, Spain, Greece, and Italy I can hardly be called a stay at home Brit, and the 1 thing I am 100% sure of is that each and everyone of those countries have their own likes, dislikes, and ways of thinking and doing.
If you go round those countries and all the others that are members of the EU and ask if they all want to live under 1 flag with 1 anthem I am convinced you will receive a resounding NO.

Having a loose working commitment to trade and help each other is 1 thing, being forced to become a "family" that we are not, never have been, and never will be is quite another.

Simple question, We are certainly headed for a general election. If, as I expect, the tory's and Brexit parties win, will the remainders accept that or are we doomed to have this mess for the rest of time?

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by QuakerPete » Wed Sep 25, 2019 6:34 pm

Darlo_Pete wrote:Why does Labour want to have a 2 choice second referendum, to either vote for the deal offered or to remain, why are they not asking if people want to leave without a deal?
Probably because No Deal was nowhere on the radar in 2016, the country was promised a rather good deal if we left. No Deal only appeared at the back end of 2018.


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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by DarloOnTheUp » Wed Sep 25, 2019 6:42 pm

QuakerPete wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 6:34 pm
Darlo_Pete wrote:Why does Labour want to have a 2 choice second referendum, to either vote for the deal offered or to remain, why are they not asking if people want to leave without a deal?
Probably because No Deal was nowhere on the radar in 2016, the country was promised a rather good deal if we left. No Deal only appeared at the back end of 2018.


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And as I've mentioned before several times, what was discussed in the referendum was a trade deal, not a withdrawal agreement.

The trade negotiations will begin once we've left either with or without a withdrawal agreement. But to compare the two (trade and withdrawal) is either dishonest or misguided. They aren't the same.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by QuakerPete » Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:39 pm

DarloOnTheUp wrote:
QuakerPete wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 6:34 pm
Darlo_Pete wrote:Why does Labour want to have a 2 choice second referendum, to either vote for the deal offered or to remain, why are they not asking if people want to leave without a deal?
Probably because No Deal was nowhere on the radar in 2016, the country was promised a rather good deal if we left. No Deal only appeared at the back end of 2018.


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And as I've mentioned before several times, what was discussed in the referendum was a trade deal, not a withdrawal agreement.

The trade negotiations will begin once we've left either with or without a withdrawal agreement. But to compare the two (trade and withdrawal) is either dishonest or misguided. They aren't the same.
You’re conflating the two elements being distinctly separate without there being an effect of one on the other. The effects of having a deal or having no deal are different and fundamental. No Deal (Withdrawal Agreement not ratified) was not on the table in 2016


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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Darlo_Pete » Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:18 pm

Just been watching the debate from parliament for the last 2.75hrs or so, absolutely fascinating. I think Boris will steamroll Labour at the forthcoming election. The result will depend on how many Labour voters who voted leave, would vote for Conservative or Brexit if there is a pact between them at the election & how many Conservatives who voted remain, would vote for the Lib Dems.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by DarloOnTheUp » Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:46 pm

QuakerPete wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:39 pm
DarloOnTheUp wrote:
QuakerPete wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 6:34 pm
Darlo_Pete wrote:Why does Labour want to have a 2 choice second referendum, to either vote for the deal offered or to remain, why are they not asking if people want to leave without a deal?
Probably because No Deal was nowhere on the radar in 2016, the country was promised a rather good deal if we left. No Deal only appeared at the back end of 2018.


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And as I've mentioned before several times, what was discussed in the referendum was a trade deal, not a withdrawal agreement.

The trade negotiations will begin once we've left either with or without a withdrawal agreement. But to compare the two (trade and withdrawal) is either dishonest or misguided. They aren't the same.
You’re conflating the two elements being distinctly separate without there being an effect of one on the other. The effects of having a deal or having no deal are different and fundamental. No Deal (Withdrawal Agreement not ratified) was not on the table in 2016


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The only one conflating anything is you: you're conflating a withdrawal agreement with a trade agreement. For example, you stated we were "promised a rather good deal". Yes, a rather good trade deal, not a withdrawal agreement.

If you want to discuss one or the other then fine, but don't pretend like they're the same thing.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by DarloOnTheUp » Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:14 pm

Darlo_Pete wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:18 pm
Just been watching the debate from parliament for the last 2.75hrs or so, absolutely fascinating. I think Boris will steamroll Labour at the forthcoming election. The result will depend on how many Labour voters who voted leave, would vote for Conservative or Brexit if there is a pact between them at the election & how many Conservatives who voted remain, would vote for the Lib Dems.
Agreed Pete, I have a feeling the way in which the Remainers have dishonestly tried to overturn the democratic result from 2016 by any means necessary (by hook or by crook) may backfire in terms of public opinion.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by DarloOnTheUp » Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:22 pm

Oh, and it turns out there was 'no evidence' of crimes by Leave.EU and Arron Banks, so Remainers can shut up about that one now:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49807401

And the Remain campaign has been fined for overspending in the referendum recently, so they can shut up about that one as well:

https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/ ... gations-11

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by QuakerPete » Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:30 pm

DarloOnTheUp wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:46 pm
QuakerPete wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:39 pm
DarloOnTheUp wrote:
QuakerPete wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 6:34 pm
Darlo_Pete wrote:Why does Labour want to have a 2 choice second referendum, to either vote for the deal offered or to remain, why are they not asking if people want to leave without a deal?
Probably because No Deal was nowhere on the radar in 2016, the country was promised a rather good deal if we left. No Deal only appeared at the back end of 2018.


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And as I've mentioned before several times, what was discussed in the referendum was a trade deal, not a withdrawal agreement.

The trade negotiations will begin once we've left either with or without a withdrawal agreement. But to compare the two (trade and withdrawal) is either dishonest or misguided. They aren't the same.
You’re conflating the two elements being distinctly separate without there being an effect of one on the other. The effects of having a deal or having no deal are different and fundamental. No Deal (Withdrawal Agreement not ratified) was not on the table in 2016


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The only one conflating anything is you: you're conflating a withdrawal agreement with a trade agreement. For example, you stated we were "promised a rather good deal". Yes, a rather good trade deal, not a withdrawal agreement.

If you want to discuss one or the other then fine, but don't pretend like they're the same thing.
You'll be able to quote where I said they were the same thing?

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by DarloOnTheUp » Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:36 pm

QuakerPete wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:30 pm
You'll be able to quote where I said they were the same thing?
I just did, in the very same post you quoted.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by QuakerPete » Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:44 pm

DarloOnTheUp wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:36 pm
QuakerPete wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:30 pm
You'll be able to quote where I said they were the same thing?
I just did, in the very same post you quoted.
I think you need to brush up on your comprehension skills

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by DarloOnTheUp » Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:53 pm

QuakerPete wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:44 pm
DarloOnTheUp wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:36 pm
QuakerPete wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:30 pm
You'll be able to quote where I said they were the same thing?
I just did, in the very same post you quoted.
I think you need to brush up on your comprehension skills
Either way, it seems you now admit that they're not the same thing.

Great, so now you can stop conflating the two.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by QuakerPete » Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:02 pm

DarloOnTheUp wrote:
QuakerPete wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:44 pm
DarloOnTheUp wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:36 pm
QuakerPete wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:30 pm
You'll be able to quote where I said they were the same thing?
I just did, in the very same post you quoted.
I think you need to brush up on your comprehension skills
Either way, it seems you now admit that they're not the same thing.

Great, so now you can stop conflating the two.
As I’ve never equated the two as the same, I can hardly admit anything. But by all means keep your desperation going


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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by DarloOnTheUp » Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:17 pm

As I said, great, we're at an understanding: a trade agreement and a withdrawal agreement are two separate things.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by QuakerPete » Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:44 pm

DarloOnTheUp wrote:As I said, great, we're at an understanding: a trade agreement and a withdrawal agreement are two separate things.
And where the ditching of one will have a material effect on the other


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