Democracy under threat.

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QuakerPete
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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by QuakerPete » Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:10 am

Darlo_Pete wrote:Granted it will be tough in the short term, but in the medium to long term, the country will flourish. Europe will still want to trade with us, but we will now have the opportunity to do trade deals with numerous other countries. The prophets of doom if we leave in a hard brexit are vastly overstated. Make no mistake I wanted to remain in the EU when the referendum was held, but I believe in democracy and so we need to leave. If the referendum had voted to remain, how do you think the people that voted to remain would feel if the out campaign was asking for another vote, they'd be dead against it saying the people had already voted to remain. So deal with it like I've had to do and embrace change, you might be pleasantly surprised at the outcome.
It’s a fine speech, but you’ve provided zero evidence of either the impacts of the downsides or the benefits of the upsides contained in this group of soundbites.
Democracy is a continuous process, otherwise it would be a dictatorship. No-one can be bound by a political decision made yesterday, never mind 3 years ago - that’s the benefit of a true democratic country and society - the ability to disagree with a decision and to attempt change by all legal methods.
Even Farage said it would be “unfinished business” on a close 2016 vote.
And you don’t need to feel obliged to have any allegiance to a vote obtained using fraudulent and illegal methods - that’s the very antithesis of democracy
https://www.thecanary.co/uk/analysis/20 ... legal/amp/


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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by onewayup » Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:28 pm

Democracy, people from
All countries seem to be signing this cancel article 50 petition online interference from outside the UK, UK citizens voted out, now do the right thing by the electorate.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:18 pm

Quaker Pete,
using figures in that manner does not always work.
I can "prove" I have 11 fingers and thumbs. (I haven't), but can prove I have by manipulating the figures.
You say our imports are spread between 27 countries. How many of those 27 do we actually trade with? Also to what extent.
Take out the import of cars, (Peugeot, Citroen, BMW, etc) and what figure do you have left.
Further, when we were trundled into the EU with no say on the matter how many of the Commonwealth countries were we FORCED to stop trading with because the rest of the EU did not have like agreements with them? (The vast majority of the Commonwealth say they will be happy to restart dealing)
Our 2017 Imports from Germany 60,859,846,783.
Lithuania's total exports the same period from only a figure of 29.12 billion show, Russia 15% Latvia 9.9% Poland 8.1% Germany 7.3% United States 5.3% Estonia 5% Sweden 4.8% (2017). The UK don't even get a mention
Those figures alone show that Germany will be far more concerned about our leaving than will Lithuania, thus they will fight harder to frighten us into staying or force the worst deal the can to cover the massive loss we will be to them

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by QuakerPete » Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:53 pm

EDJOHNS wrote:Quaker Pete,
using figures in that manner does not always work.
I can "prove" I have 11 fingers and thumbs. (I haven't), but can prove I have by manipulating the figures.
You say our imports are spread between 27 countries. How many of those 27 do we actually trade with? Also to what extent.
Take out the import of cars, (Peugeot, Citroen, BMW, etc) and what figure do you have left.
Further, when we were trundled into the EU with no say on the matter how many of the Commonwealth countries were we FORCED to stop trading with because the rest of the EU did not have like agreements with them? (The vast majority of the Commonwealth say they will be happy to restart dealing)
Our 2017 Imports from Germany 60,859,846,783.
Lithuania's total exports the same period from only a figure of 29.12 billion show, Russia 15% Latvia 9.9% Poland 8.1% Germany 7.3% United States 5.3% Estonia 5% Sweden 4.8% (2017). The UK don't even get a mention
Those figures alone show that Germany will be far more concerned about our leaving than will Lithuania, thus they will fight harder to frighten us into staying or force the worst deal the can to cover the massive loss we will be to them
You appear to be the only international trade negotiator who thinks the EU will blink, whereas the EU has been consistent on May’s Deal (unless there’s a softening in red lines for Single Market and / or Customs Union) or letting the UK go to WTO under its own decision. The EU already have their WTO preparations in place. They won’t break the Four Freedoms of Goods, Services, Capital and Labour for a third country (UK) otherwise there’s no point for the EU. Any deal is always going to be worse than EU, otherwise that would be a membership benefit.
No one is saying it won’t hit the EU’s economy, but they are much more able to absorb that pain, even the government’s own Brexit department acknowledges how it will hit us.
We trade with all of the EU on differing scales, just as we already trade with the Commonwealth - many of them very small, non-industrialised agri-economies.
It remains to then ask what is the advantage of removing our trading advantage with membership of the EU with no tariffs and barriers and shifting to a Commonwealth which is nothing more than a nod to past empire, where WTO then inserts its tariffs and non-tariff barriers.
The EU, for good or bad, is a multi-trillion, advanced economy market on our doorstep with no barriers - division 1, as former director-general of the WTO (Pascal Lamy) is quoted as saying. He also said WTO was division 4.
Shooting ourselves in the foot and blaming the EU springs to mind
PS - You can only *prove* you have 11 fingers and thumbs if you actually have 11 - the rest is lies, subterfuge or whatever you want to call it


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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:17 am

Are you into debate or sarcasm? I am as much a " international trade negotiator" as you are. Please also show where I said it would not hurt? On the contrary I said that it would be painful at first. What I do NOT accept is this whitewash that we have nowhere else to trade. That is an outright lie. We have. As I said before the commonwealth will take a lot of the slack,
Further, if you choose to believe it or not, there will be tears in the EU's eyes when they eventually do blink, which they will even if it is after we have left. Taking "no deal" off the table virtually gives them the result on a plate as it leaves us sweet sod all to fight with. Once we are out they will miss our trade imports just as much as we will miss our exports to them. In truth, there is little option for them but to come back to the table, IF the EU still exists.
I happen to believe that once the first 1 leave the whole thing will crumble within 10 years.
11 fingers. .... Of course I am manipulating the figures in exactly the same way as you did to sensationalise the trade figures highlighting the 27 countries. You are fully aware that 65-70% of that trade is with about 25% of the 27 countries.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Darlo_Pete » Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:46 am

I agree with you ED the EU will collapse inside 10 years, as nationalist governments will remove their countries from the EU, after populist votes by the public in their countries. The EU is as fated as the Euro. How on earth people expect so many diverse economies could be brought under one currency, is beyond me.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by onewayup » Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:32 pm

I have always believed that the euro leaders treatment of the UK was as a cash cow, when there was a funding issue you can bet that Britain paid a bigger proportion than the other EU countries, by one way or another. There has never been equally within the EU from the day we were signed up to it through the back door, people aren't daft the option was to join the common market, not the European Union. Joining the European Union was as I said a back door deal the people didn't want or know until the deal was done. Come out now without a deal we won't be any worse off, probably better off. Sick to death of this back biteing, none of the so called know alls can give a conclusive answer, but I think we're better of out.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by QuakerPete » Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:31 am

onewayup wrote:I have always believed that the euro leaders treatment of the UK was as a cash cow, when there was a funding issue you can bet that Britain paid a bigger proportion than the other EU countries, by one way or another. There has never been equally within the EU from the day we were signed up to it through the back door, people aren't daft the option was to join the common market, not the European Union. Joining the European Union was as I said a back door deal the people didn't want or know until the deal was done. Come out now without a deal we won't be any worse off, probably better off. Sick to death of this back biteing, none of the so called know alls can give a conclusive answer, but I think we're better of out.
The CBI (Confederation of British Industry) estimates that membership of EU is worth about 4-5% of GDP annually, equivalent to £62 billion up to £78 billion.
Our net annual payment to the EU is only £9 billion in comparison
The Bank of England estimates we’re losing £800 million per week in lost output due to Brexit
Why would we leave and put barriers between us and our biggest market by far?


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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Darlo_Pete » Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:12 am

Good to see that none of the indicative votes commanded a majority. It looks like we'll be leaving or going with Theresa May's option. The effect on our economy when we leave the EU will be significant, but sometimes as the saying the goes, there's no gain without pain. I do think the prophets of gloom are overstating the effects of brexit and we need to respect that 17.4 million voted to eave the EU.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by shildonlad » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:18 am

onewayup wrote:I have always believed that the euro leaders treatment of the UK was as a cash cow, when there was a funding issue you can bet that Britain paid a bigger proportion than the other EU countries, by one way or another. There has never been equally within the EU from the day we were signed up to it through the back door, people aren't daft the option was to join the common market, not the European Union. Joining the European Union was as I said a back door deal the people didn't want or know until the deal was done. Come out now without a deal we won't be any worse off, probably better off. Sick to death of this back biteing, none of the so called know alls can give a conclusive answer, but I think we're better of out.
Take it you dont work in the car industry then or any other firm that does alot of business with europe
I may not live in the north east anymore but i still support the north east teams

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:56 am

QuakerPete wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:31 am
onewayup wrote:I have always believed that the euro leaders treatment of the UK was as a cash cow, when there was a funding issue you can bet that Britain paid a bigger proportion than the other EU countries, by one way or another. There has never been equally within the EU from the day we were signed up to it through the back door, people aren't daft the option was to join the common market, not the European Union. Joining the European Union was as I said a back door deal the people didn't want or know until the deal was done. Come out now without a deal we won't be any worse off, probably better off. Sick to death of this back biteing, none of the so called know alls can give a conclusive answer, but I think we're better of out.
The CBI (Confederation of British Industry) estimates that membership of EU is worth about 4-5% of GDP annually, equivalent to £62 billion up to £78 billion.
Our net annual payment to the EU is only £9 billion in comparison
The Bank of England estimates we’re losing £800 million per week in lost output due to Brexit
Why would we leave and put barriers between us and our biggest market by far?


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Not rocket science. Because the majority of those who took the time and effort to vote voted to leave.
Quite simply now it is a case of do you believe in democracy or not?
Both, not just 1, side lied about the effects when they were trying to win our votes. I would think anyone over the age of 30 knew that, or they should have. Politicians, if they don't outright lie, twist facts to get what they want. Now the remainers are twisting as hard as they can to frighten people into backing out.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by onewayup » Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:50 pm

Where I work or don't has no bearing on the fact that a vote was made to leave the EU, I believe that was the point of the vote or am I missing something, we managed well enough without the EU meddling for centuries, Free trade agreements are the best way forward, making our own laws and controlling our own destiny is I believe the correct way forward. Greedy unelected eurocrates were not elected but foisted on us.
They are holding us back with their scaremongering from Brussels.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by QuakerPete » Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:34 pm

EDJOHNS wrote:
QuakerPete wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:31 am
onewayup wrote:I have always believed that the euro leaders treatment of the UK was as a cash cow, when there was a funding issue you can bet that Britain paid a bigger proportion than the other EU countries, by one way or another. There has never been equally within the EU from the day we were signed up to it through the back door, people aren't daft the option was to join the common market, not the European Union. Joining the European Union was as I said a back door deal the people didn't want or know until the deal was done. Come out now without a deal we won't be any worse off, probably better off. Sick to death of this back biteing, none of the so called know alls can give a conclusive answer, but I think we're better of out.
The CBI (Confederation of British Industry) estimates that membership of EU is worth about 4-5% of GDP annually, equivalent to £62 billion up to £78 billion.
Our net annual payment to the EU is only £9 billion in comparison
The Bank of England estimates we’re losing £800 million per week in lost output due to Brexit
Why would we leave and put barriers between us and our biggest market by far?


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Not rocket science. Because the majority of those who took the time and effort to vote voted to leave.
Quite simply now it is a case of do you believe in democracy or not?
Both, not just 1, side lied about the effects when they were trying to win our votes. I would think anyone over the age of 30 knew that, or they should have. Politicians, if they don't outright lie, twist facts to get what they want. Now the remainers are twisting as hard as they can to frighten people into backing out.
(1) I don’t think you should be preaching “democracy” if you’re well aware of the fraud, illegalities and on-going criminal investigations into Leave’s (and only Leave’s) conduct. These all acknowledged in court by Sir James Eadie QC, legal counsel for the Prime Minister
(2) I didn’t mention anything about campaign lies or promises, My previous post gave figures of how we are (and will be) worse off due to Brexit, dependent upon the type of deal if we leave, but particularly under No Deal. Please feel free to challenge those figures directly with the organisations concerned with any counter-figures. I’m not twisting facts, merely presenting them
(3) Did democracy end on June 23, 2016? Do you not like people exercising their democratic rights of opposing something in a lawful and peaceful way? Or is it ok for the government to have unlimited “meaningful votes” to get what their way? Or the likes of Rees-Mogg and Johnson changing their minds about a deal, but not the rest of us apparently? Strange kind of democracy.


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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by QuakerPete » Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:21 pm

onewayup wrote:Where I work or don't has no bearing on the fact that a vote was made to leave the EU, I believe that was the point of the vote or am I missing something, we managed well enough without the EU meddling for centuries, Free trade agreements are the best way forward, making our own laws and controlling our own destiny is I believe the correct way forward. Greedy unelected eurocrates were not elected but foisted on us.
They are holding us back with their scaremongering from Brussels.
The world has changed immensely from prior to our EU membership, it’s now all about partnerships and alliances - not standing alone. Countries across the world are joining together in organisations because it makes them all stronger - just like supermarkets can demand better terms than independent shops.
As part of the EU we already have FTAs with a number of countries outside the EU - Japan being the latest signed this year (combined GDP is around 33% of the world). EU hope to complete another FTA with Mercusor (South America) this year which is an even bigger partnership. No Deal wipes out *every* type of deal - 759 of them - we would have to start from scratch - disastrous!
Have a read below on how the EU works if you’re really interested - the Parliament (elected MEPs), Commission (each state - including UK - has one commissioner) and Council (heads of governments).
In the UK we don’t elect our head of state (monarch), or the Prime Minister (and certainly not the next one who’ll be effectively elected by 300+ Tory MPs), none of the Cabinet members, certainly none of the 400,000 civil servants involved in government, one of whom was at the heart of Brexit negotiations, or the House of Lords where peerages are handed out like confetti for “services rendered”.
The EU is more than a match for the UK in terms of democracy:-
https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-be ... reaucrats/


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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by shildonlad » Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:44 pm

QuakerPete wrote:
onewayup wrote:Where I work or don't has no bearing on the fact that a vote was made to leave the EU, I believe that was the point of the vote or am I missing something, we managed well enough without the EU meddling for centuries, Free trade agreements are the best way forward, making our own laws and controlling our own destiny is I believe the correct way forward. Greedy unelected eurocrates were not elected but foisted on us.
They are holding us back with their scaremongering from Brussels.
The world has changed immensely from prior to our EU membership, it’s now all about partnerships and alliances - not standing alone. Countries across the world are joining together in organisations because it makes them all stronger - just like supermarkets can demand better terms than independent shops.
As part of the EU we already have FTAs with a number of countries outside the EU - Japan being the latest signed this year (combined GDP is around 33% of the world). EU hope to complete another FTA with Mercusor (South America) this year which is an even bigger partnership. No Deal wipes out *every* type of deal - 759 of them - we would have to start from scratch - disastrous!
Have a read below on how the EU works if you’re really interested - the Parliament (elected MEPs), Commission (each state - including UK - has one commissioner) and Council (heads of governments).
In the UK we don’t elect our head of state (monarch), or the Prime Minister (and certainly not the next one who’ll be effectively elected by 300+ Tory MPs), none of the Cabinet members, certainly none of the 400,000 civil servants involved in government, one of whom was at the heart of Brexit negotiations, or the House of Lords where peerages are handed out like confetti for “services rendered”.
The EU is more than a match for the UK in terms of democracy:-
https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-be ... reaucrats/


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Intresting points. Wish the politicians would realise the importance in what you said
I may not live in the north east anymore but i still support the north east teams

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Darlo_Pete » Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:24 am

Looks like today's vote will be lost as well, which at least means things should come to an end by the 12th of April and a decision will be made at long last or a decision won't be made and we will exit the EU, to respect the brexit vote.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by DarloOnTheUp » Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:51 pm

QuakerPete: we've heard this all before, what you're saying isn't some new illuminating piece of information that only you possess. Everything you're saying was said at the time of the vote. The problem is that it's nothing more than (1) scare-mongering, (2) stating prediction and opinion as fact, (3) twisting narratives to suit your agenda, and (4) straight-up falsehoods. You also happen to have the mainstream media on your side who constantly bombard us with the same propaganda day-in, day-out.

I voted Leave and I expect my vote to be carried out. You keep mentioning that democracy is an ongoing process: this is nothing to do with that. This is a blatant attempt to overturn a result that didn't go your way (which is something the EU do repeatedly). I mean we haven't even honoured the original outcome yet, and you're already talking about another vote.

Well if you get another go, so do we, ad infinitum.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by QuakerPete » Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:30 pm

DarloOnTheUp wrote:QuakerPete: we've heard this all before, what you're saying isn't some new illuminating piece of information that only you possess. Everything you're saying was said at the time of the vote. The problem is that it's nothing more than (1) scare-mongering, (2) stating prediction and opinion as fact, (3) twisting narratives to suit your agenda, and (4) straight-up falsehoods. You also happen to have the mainstream media on your side who constantly bombard us with the same propaganda day-in, day-out.

I voted Leave and I expect my vote to be carried out. You keep mentioning that democracy is an ongoing process: this is nothing to do with that. This is a blatant attempt to overturn a result that didn't go your way (which is something the EU do repeatedly). I mean we haven't even honoured the original outcome yet, and you're already talking about another vote.

Well if you get another go, so do we, ad infinitum.
Where to start:
(1) Please supply evidence of my scaremongering
(2) Please supply evidence of my stating opinion and prediction as fact
(3) Please supply evidence of my twisting narratives
(4) And *definitely* please advise on falsehoods (lies, you mean?) I’ve said
And mainstream media backing Remain? Like the Daily Mail, Sun, Express, Telegraph you mean? They’ve always produced scare stories about the EU for decades - owned by tax-avoiding billionaires. Do me a favour!
And at what point did I say that democracy wasn’t about changing things - of course it is, otherwise why bother.
When a promised outcome - such as a great deal, better than what we have, there are no downsides only upsides - and those promises haven’t been met, then people are entitled to have a say if they want to change before jumping off the cliff. It’s just basic common sense and, you never know, the Leave side just might win . . . that’s democracy in action.
And while you’re lecturing me on democracy, just check out Sir James Eadie QC, legal counsel for Theresa May, admitting in court about Leave’s illegal activities and on-going criminal investigations - if the 2016 vote had been binding (it wasn’t) then it would have been voided


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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Darlo_Pete » Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:02 pm

So Pete if there was a second referendum and the people voted to remain in the EU, would you be happy if the brexit people forced a third refendum? A democratic vote has already been held and the majority should be respected as we leave the EU.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by QuakerPete » Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:59 pm

Darlo_Pete wrote:So Pete if there was a second referendum and the people voted to remain in the EU, would you be happy if the brexit people forced a third refendum? A democratic vote has already been held and the majority should be respected as we leave the EU.
Happy? No! But as long as they carried out all their endeavours in a legal / democratic way, then why not?
And I mention “legal” because the lead group for leaving the EU - Vote Leave - have just today withdrawn their appeal against the Electoral Commission’s findings that they broke election laws in a serious manner. It doesn’t sound much of a democratic way to conduct themselves and is deserving of no respect. And still many criminal investigations into Leave individuals and groups on-going
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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by onewayup » Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:21 pm

There should not be another vote just to appease the remainers. The vote was out that should happen. That is democracy.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by onewayup » Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:21 pm

There should not be another vote just to appease the remainers. The vote was out that should happen. That is democracy.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Darlo_Pete » Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:51 pm

onewayup wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:21 pm
There should not be another vote just to appease the remainers. The vote was out that should happen. That is democracy.
Exactly, you can bet your bottom dollar that if the vote had been to remain, they the anti-brexit people wouldn't countenance a second referendum.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:02 pm

Darlo_Pete wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:51 pm
onewayup wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:21 pm
There should not be another vote just to appease the remainers. The vote was out that should happen. That is democracy.
Exactly, you can bet your bottom dollar that if the vote had been to remain, they the anti-brexit people wouldn't countenance a second referendum.
It would not have been even thought of let alone discussed.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by QuakerPete » Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:33 pm

EDJOHNS wrote:
Darlo_Pete wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:51 pm
onewayup wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:21 pm
There should not be another vote just to appease the remainers. The vote was out that should happen. That is democracy.
Exactly, you can bet your bottom dollar that if the vote had been to remain, they the anti-brexit people wouldn't countenance a second referendum.
It would not have been even thought of let alone discussed.
Really? Are you sure? Absolutely certain?
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/n ... 985017.amp


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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Spyman » Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:23 am

QuakerPete wrote:
EDJOHNS wrote:
Darlo_Pete wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:51 pm
onewayup wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:21 pm
There should not be another vote just to appease the remainers. The vote was out that should happen. That is democracy.
Exactly, you can bet your bottom dollar that if the vote had been to remain, they the anti-brexit people wouldn't countenance a second referendum.
It would not have been even thought of let alone discussed.
Really? Are you sure? Absolutely certain?
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/n ... 985017.amp


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Hard to compare - the Remain campaign was based on keeping the status quo, no negotiation was required with an external party to deliver Remain.

The Brexit campaign was based around unknowns. Many of those unknowns have transpired to be difficult/impossible to deliver, therefore now that this is clear it is not unsurprising people want to clarify that it's still what the public wants.

Had we voted remain and then two or three years people had called for another vote, unless something significant had changed over that period I can't see why a different outcome would be expected, but surely given what we know now compared to 3 years ago there's a reasonable expectation that a few people might vote differently. If not then no problem, original vote stands.

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On Sunday April 29, 2012 at 10:25 pm, Darlo Cockney wrote:Sadly some people have nothing better to do that invent rumours.

We will be playing at the arena again next season - fact.

Quakerz - if you actually attended games and spoke to people you might actually find our facts, rather than spreading s*** on this board.

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EDJOHNS
Posts: 178
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:56 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:39 am

Spyman wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:23 am
QuakerPete wrote:
EDJOHNS wrote:
Darlo_Pete wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:51 pm
onewayup wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:21 pm
There should not be another vote just to appease the remainers. The vote was out that should happen. That is democracy.
Exactly, you can bet your bottom dollar that if the vote had been to remain, they the anti-brexit people wouldn't countenance a second referendum.
It would not have been even thought of let alone discussed.
Really? Are you sure? Absolutely certain?
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/n ... 985017.amp


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Hard to compare - the Remain campaign was based on keeping the status quo, no negotiation was required with an external party to deliver Remain.

The Brexit campaign was based around unknowns. Many of those unknowns have transpired to be difficult/impossible to deliver, therefore now that this is clear it is not unsurprising people want to clarify that it's still what the public wants.

Had we voted remain and then two or three years people had called for another vote, unless something significant had changed over that period I can't see why a different outcome would be expected, but surely given what we know now compared to 3 years ago there's a reasonable expectation that a few people might vote differently. If not then no problem, original vote stands.

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Sorry, but by the very meaning of the word democracy you can not have a change in the peoples wishes until you have delivered them.
I know remainers will say that would cost a fortune, but the simple FACT is that despite all the doom and gloom merchants prophecies no-one actually knows what a no deal exit will mean medium to long term. We know it would cause problems short term, but we have countries out there eager to deal with us that are unable to because of EU laws. Once we are not bound by those laws and can go our own way it is actually NOT that hard for 2 companies,(replace with countries), to sit down and thrash out a sell/buy deal.
Ps, I agree some may vote to stay now, but I have also heard more than 1 who voted to remain say that they would vote to leave now on the principle that was the result.

Darlo_Pete
Posts: 11788
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:13 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Darlo_Pete » Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:18 am

I think that if we end up with a soft brexit, it could well lead to some civil unrest. Not sure what to expect will come out of the talks between May and Corbyn.

joejaques
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Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 10:36 am
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Location: Milford Haven

Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by joejaques » Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:18 am

The May / Corbyn talks will turn in to a 30 minute duel, using red lines as swords :roll:
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Darlo_Pete
Posts: 11788
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:13 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Darlo_Pete » Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:53 pm

Hmmmm given their past meetings I'd be surprised if it last 30 minutes.

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