The UK as it will look in the future

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EDJOHNS
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The UK as it will look in the future

Post by EDJOHNS » Sat Dec 14, 2019 2:34 pm

Well, no matter your opinion of leaving the EU it seems we will shortly be doing so.

Where does this leave the British union?

The SNP virtually wiped the rest off the board, and while I have found it spine grating Sturgeon repeatedly saying Scotland was being ignored as she was totally ignoring the fact it was a democratic vote over the whole union, surely, like it or not, Scotland must, and preferably quickly, be given the chance to vote again to either stay with Europe or join the rest of the UK in leaving.
To take them out and then let them have a new vote would, in my opinion, be totally stupid.

To say the vote in 2014 was a "Once in a lifetime" vote and should not be repeated is rather laughable after all the squirming and court action by the remain brigade.

Interested to see where people stand on the break up of the UK.
I don't see this going away any time soon so it really needs to be faced and dealt with head on, and a blanket NO from BJ just won't make it go away.

Old Git
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Re: The UK as it will look in the future

Post by Old Git » Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:20 pm

Yes lets have another referendum on Scottish Independence. This time we should have a vote in the rest of the UK to see if we want to keep the whining b....... or let them take there chances in the real world without us.

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Norm_D_Ploom
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Re: The UK as it will look in the future

Post by Norm_D_Ploom » Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:27 pm

I'm with Old Git. If the union is to be broken up we should all be allowed to vote on it.

The thing is though that it will keep coming back until she gets the answer she wants.

Boris has got far more important things to worry about at the moment. Get January out of the way, negotiate a good trade deal and start actioning some of the stuff that they promised, once that's underway then perhaps think about IR2.

EDJOHNS
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Re: The UK as it will look in the future

Post by EDJOHNS » Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:31 pm

Old Git wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:20 pm
Yes lets have another referendum on Scottish Independence. This time we should have a vote in the rest of the UK to see if we want to keep the whining b....... or let them take there chances in the real world without us.
This is the best reply I have seen to any political question on this or any other site :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

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theoriginalfatcat
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Re: The UK as it will look in the future

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Sat Dec 14, 2019 5:44 pm

Not all SNP voters (this time round) want independence. The SNP represents Scotland’s very own left leaning party, something that they can call their own and works exclusively for them, however Independence is a different matter altogether and not a foregone conclusion.

Sturgeon likes to give the impression she’s got an answer to every question but she hasn’t - Andrew Neil got her hot under the collar when he shone a spotlight onto some of her ideas.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

Tamworth matchday programme 26 Nov 2011

Darlo_Pete
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Re: The UK as it will look in the future

Post by Darlo_Pete » Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:18 pm

Boris should just ignore the SNP, they've had their vote & lost. The trouble is if there was another vote & the SNP lost, they'd just keep demanding a further referendum until they actually won.

biccynana
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Re: The UK as it will look in the future

Post by biccynana » Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:17 pm

EDJOHNS wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:31 pm
Old Git wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:20 pm
Yes lets have another referendum on Scottish Independence. This time we should have a vote in the rest of the UK to see if we want to keep the whining b....... or let them take there chances in the real world without us.
This is the best reply I have seen to any political question on this or any other site :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
You're easily impressed.

Darlogramps
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Re: The UK as it will look in the future

Post by Darlogramps » Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:11 am

biccynana wrote:
EDJOHNS wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:31 pm
Old Git wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:20 pm
Yes lets have another referendum on Scottish Independence. This time we should have a vote in the rest of the UK to see if we want to keep the whining b....... or let them take there chances in the real world without us.
This is the best reply I have seen to any political question on this or any other site :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
You're easily impressed.
It’s not the best reply, just the one Ted agrees most with.
If ever you're bored or miserable:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlZohZoadGY

lo36789
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Re: The UK as it will look in the future

Post by lo36789 » Sun Dec 15, 2019 3:12 am

Darlo_Pete wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:18 pm
Boris should just ignore the SNP, they've had their vote & lost. The trouble is if there was another vote & the SNP lost, they'd just keep demanding a further referendum until they actually won.
This is a deliberately blinkered view and you know it.

1. When Scotland first voted the advice was this is your only chance to stay in the EU
2. Scotland vote 62:38 to remain in the EU
3. SNP who's main policy objective is a second referendum just took 48 / 59 seats in Scotland and most of the others went to revoke article 50 Lib Dems. Proportionally Lib Dem and SNP took over 55% of the vote in Scotland.

Ultimately I don't think it will change anything. Speaking to SNP voters they mostly do it as it is a left leaning party dedicated to looking after Scotland's interests and that is more of their concern over independence.

Simultaneously I don't believe an independent Scotland would meet the requirements of EU membership.

That said. If you purchase a flight to Paris and the airline call you up and say sorry the flight now goes to Berlin. You would be annoyed if you weren't entitled to a refund and allowed to decide if there is another way to get to Paris. You could just go somewhere else instead but you shouldn't be forced to go to Berlin.

Darlington voted for a labour minister 2 years ago but were allowed to vote again 2 years later because stuff had changed there was a new parliament. You aren't suggesting surely that once you have made a decision on something at a point in time you can never change that view - how would the Tories have achieved their majority if that were the case.

Its probably deliberate but it doesn't half come across that you like things to happen when they work in your favour but if there is an incline that others should get the same opportunity then the option shouldnt be on the table.

Old Git
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Re: The UK as it will look in the future

Post by Old Git » Sun Dec 15, 2019 9:44 am

Darlogramps wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:11 am
biccynana wrote:
EDJOHNS wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:31 pm
Old Git wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:20 pm
Yes lets have another referendum on Scottish Independence. This time we should have a vote in the rest of the UK to see if we want to keep the whining b....... or let them take there chances in the real world without us.
This is the best reply I have seen to any political question on this or any other site :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
You're easily impressed.
It’s not the best reply, just the one Ted agrees most with.
Just goes to prove your previous opinion from another post that Ted and I are one and the same person. Or could it be we are both right wing reactionary old gits ?

EDJOHNS
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Re: The UK as it will look in the future

Post by EDJOHNS » Sun Dec 15, 2019 9:54 am

Old Git wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 9:44 am
Darlogramps wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:11 am
biccynana wrote:
EDJOHNS wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:31 pm
Old Git wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:20 pm
Yes lets have another referendum on Scottish Independence. This time we should have a vote in the rest of the UK to see if we want to keep the whining b....... or let them take there chances in the real world without us.
This is the best reply I have seen to any political question on this or any other site :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
You're easily impressed.
It’s not the best reply, just the one Ted agrees most with.
Just goes to prove your previous opinion from another post that Ted and I are one and the same person. Or could it be we are both right wing reactionary old gits ?
Don't waste your breath/finger effort. He will just say I am having a discussion with myself.

By the way Mr Know all Gramps. not many, but some do call me Ted, so it did not bother me when Pete used it, nor will it worry me that your befuddled brain is stuck on it.

Darlogramps
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Re: The UK as it will look in the future

Post by Darlogramps » Sun Dec 15, 2019 11:41 am

Excellent, so you don’t mind me calling you Ted. As that’s your name.
If ever you're bored or miserable:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlZohZoadGY

EDJOHNS
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Re: The UK as it will look in the future

Post by EDJOHNS » Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:31 pm

Darlogramps wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 11:41 am
Excellent, so you don’t mind me calling you Ted. As that’s your name.
Actually no it isn't. Well, not according to my birth certificate, but hey, sure your warped brain can handle that and find a way to twist it.

Henley
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Re: The UK as it will look in the future

Post by Henley » Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:31 pm

The SNP received 45% of the vote in Scotland, and that includes the votes of people who want to remain part of the U.K.

There is no mandate for another Scottish independence referendum.

EDJOHNS
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Re: The UK as it will look in the future

Post by EDJOHNS » Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:34 pm

Henley wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:31 pm
The SNP received 45% of the vote in Scotland, and that includes the votes of people who want to remain part of the U.K.

There is no mandate for another Scottish independence referendum.
Interesting point. I think that like many Sturgeon has me slightly brainwashed having listened to her rant for the past 2 months.
Should a new referendum take place, what do you think the leave/remain, split would be, and wouldn't it be fun working out the wordage.

Do you want to stay in the UK and leave the EU, leave the UK and stay in the EU, leave the UK and leave the EU, go for a wee dram?

joejaques
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Re: The UK as it will look in the future

Post by joejaques » Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:38 pm

Look on the bright side everyone. IF the Scots have a 2nd referendum, and IF they win it, I / we will finally be able to see ENGLAND compete in the Olympic Games. :D :roll:
Image

EDJOHNS
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Re: The UK as it will look in the future

Post by EDJOHNS » Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:49 pm

joejaques wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:38 pm
Look on the bright side everyone. IF the Scots have a 2nd referendum, and IF they win it, I / we will finally be able to see ENGLAND compete in the Olympic Games. :D :roll:
Yes but dang it, they will tax us to hell on the Bells.

lo36789
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Re: The UK as it will look in the future

Post by lo36789 » Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:54 pm

Henley wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:31 pm
The SNP received 45% of the vote in Scotland, and that includes the votes of people who want to remain part of the U.K.

There is no mandate for another Scottish independence referendum.
Conservative received votes of people who voted to remain in the EU - there is no mandate for a no deal brexit.

Conservatives have a mandate for everything in their manifesto because they won a majority simple as. SNP have a mandate to deliver for Scotland what was in their manifesto as far as I can see.

Henley
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Re: The UK as it will look in the future

Post by Henley » Sun Dec 15, 2019 7:07 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:54 pm
Henley wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:31 pm
The SNP received 45% of the vote in Scotland, and that includes the votes of people who want to remain part of the U.K.

There is no mandate for another Scottish independence referendum.
Conservative received votes of people who voted to remain in the EU - there is no mandate for a no deal brexit.

Conservatives have a mandate for everything in their manifesto because they won a majority simple as. SNP have a mandate to deliver for Scotland what was in their manifesto as far as I can see.
There is a mandate for a no deal Brexit - it was given in 2016. It doesn’t mean that’s the preferred option.

The SNP aren’t in government so they don’t have any way of delivering on their manifesto. That’s why those who are not supporters of an independent Scotland voted for them too.

There will be no referendum during this U.K. parliament.

lo36789
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Re: The UK as it will look in the future

Post by lo36789 » Sun Dec 15, 2019 8:25 pm

I didn't say there would be. I said that the SNP make a pretty valid argument for another one.

- Do you deny that Scotland voted by a larger majority to remain in the EU than the whole of the UK voted to leave. So by definition for the ruling party in Scotland to attempt to remain is a stronger mandate than that of the entire UK to leave. The UK voted 52:48 and you believe that this was clear and sizeable majority if that was 62:38 what would your perspective be then?
- Do you deny that the SNPs predominant purpose is for an independent Scotland and that is how they campaigned the election (https://s3-eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/www. ... wnload.pdf). It is pretty much introduced in the second paragraph of the manifesto and repeated in every paragraph after it.
- Do you deny that a political party has an obligation to seek action to deliver the issues it promotes during an election campaign (see above link)
- Do you deny that the SNP hold a majority of seats in Scotland which is proportionally greater than the majority that Conservatives hold in England?
- Do you deny that the Lib Dems and SNP election campaigns were predominantly fought on a pro-EU stance and that between them they hold a proportional majority in Scotland over parties arguing for leave.

SNP are obligated as far as I am concerned to ask for a second referendum. Try and justify how not given their manifesto and election results.

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Re: The UK as it will look in the future

Post by Henley » Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:39 am

lo36789 wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 8:25 pm
I didn't say there would be. I said that the SNP make a pretty valid argument for another one.

- Do you deny that Scotland voted by a larger majority to remain in the EU than the whole of the UK voted to leave. So by definition for the ruling party in Scotland to attempt to remain is a stronger mandate than that of the entire UK to leave. The UK voted 52:48 and you believe that this was clear and sizeable majority if that was 62:38 what would your perspective be then?
- Do you deny that the SNPs predominant purpose is for an independent Scotland and that is how they campaigned the election (https://s3-eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/www. ... wnload.pdf). It is pretty much introduced in the second paragraph of the manifesto and repeated in every paragraph after it.
- Do you deny that a political party has an obligation to seek action to deliver the issues it promotes during an election campaign (see above link)
- Do you deny that the SNP hold a majority of seats in Scotland which is proportionally greater than the majority that Conservatives hold in England?
- Do you deny that the Lib Dems and SNP election campaigns were predominantly fought on a pro-EU stance and that between them they hold a proportional majority in Scotland over parties arguing for leave.

SNP are obligated as far as I am concerned to ask for a second referendum. Try and justify how not given their manifesto and election results.
They do not make a valid argument for another referendum, and I don’t know why you mention the LibDems because they do not want another Scottish referendum.

The SNP can ask for one but there is no argument they can make that justifies giving them one. The number of seats they got is irrelevant when you’re talking about whether a binary referendum should be given (the SNP votes per seat is the lowest of any party).

They got 45% of the vote which includes people who do not want to leave the U.K. That is no way near enough at the best of times, never mind only 5 years after the last referendum.

As an absolute minimum I’d say they need 50% of votes for it to be even considered.

lo36789
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Re: The UK as it will look in the future

Post by lo36789 » Mon Dec 16, 2019 5:59 am

Henley wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:39 am
They got 45% of the vote which includes people who do not want to leave the U.K. That is no way near enough at the best of times, never mind only 5 years after the last referendum.
How do you know that? Other than anecdotally. I can't think where I have heard this before but "there was only one option on the ballot paper" and they put SNP - who have clearly stated their primary ambition is a second independence referendum in 2020.

What is a job of an MP do you think? Again I am pretty sure I've heard it before that an MP should represent it's constituents in parliament - if it's constituents voted in favour of something they should definitely be asking for that in parliament right? So 48 MPs out of 59 in Scotland have an obligation to be asking for a second referendum in 2020 - it was what they were voted in to do.

On the flip side and aligned to your only 45% voted proportionally - needs to be 50% to be a majority. 52% of the electorate voted for a party pledging a second referendum on Brexit...does that mean we should be having one as it actually is what the majority of the country voted for.

Personally I don't believe this. I believe that with a majority of seats given the FPTP system in the UK the obligation is on each Tory MP to actually "get Brexit done" as that is what they were voted in to deliver.

Which is it that you think matters? An MP delivering (or attempting to deliver) the pledges made on which they got elected when representing their constituents OR a proportional perspective? Or do we just make assumptions over what people voted for now?

Or is it whatever works for you at the time?

Henley
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Re: The UK as it will look in the future

Post by Henley » Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:26 pm

Did you miss the bit where I said the SNP can ask for a referendum but there is no onus, moral or otherwise, for the government to give them one.

And I also did not say 50% is what is required for a referendum. I said it was the minimum before one should “even be considered”.

If you’re going to bother to respond again, try to compare like with like and quote what I actually said.

lo36789
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Re: The UK as it will look in the future

Post by lo36789 » Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:31 pm

Well tbf that was the only point I was making...

Not sure what will happen with it as there is never an obligation on UK government to give them one their best chance was / is a UK party needing SNP support to get into power.

Henley
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Re: The UK as it will look in the future

Post by Henley » Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:37 pm

The U.K. government has an easy response to SNP clamour for another referendum.

2m+ Scots voted to stay in the U.K. in 2014. The SNP received 1.25m votes in the General Election. That difference needs to be a lot smaller before another referendum is seriously considered.

lo36789
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Re: The UK as it will look in the future

Post by lo36789 » Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:10 pm

Hadn't quite realised how impressive the turnout was for the independence referendum in 2014. I think it works out at nearly 67% of the population (not electorate) considering the EU referendum had one of the highest turnouts in history that actually equated to 51% of the population.

Is it ironic that 28% of the Scottish population voted for independence compared with 26.5% of the UK population voting for Brexit...I do realise the electorate is likely representative of the total population.

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Re: The UK as it will look in the future

Post by Darlo_Pete » Sun Dec 22, 2019 9:25 am

Strangely a strong SNP is the Tories best defence in always beating Labour at future elections! If Labour do badly in Scotland, then they will never be capable of getting a majority in future General Elections, as they will never win enough seats in England & Wales.

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