Rolling Euro 2012 thread

[lo36789]

That's all football matters about these days, money. Football is no longer a game, it's a business trying to make as much money as it possibly can

Well unfortunately everything has a budget.

Goal line technology will come out of the budget, so something needs to get cut, my bet would be grassroots! (there's a pun in there somewhere)

[princes town]

I am making a link between private income and expected job outcomes. Read Paul Tomkins book 'pay as you play' if you have any doubts as he defines quite clearly the link between player capital and end outcomes. How is my logic flawed?

It is totally wrong for Hodgson to claim that england are 'defying expectations' as any economic analysis of the wages the players earn would predict a good outcome. All of these players play in top premiership teams so hodgson, well done with getting england through the group, but seriously cut the false modesty sh*t. It doesn't stack up. I follow sport precisely to escape the tyranny of economics and would rather embrace the underdog. Which is why i enjoy it when an underfunded nation — a greece, ireland, or a croatia — enjoy a spell near the top of the international rankings. However, England have vast playing resources at their disposal so are in no danger of succumbing to the laws of financial gravity. England fans should have high expectations not low expectations about this tournament. the querter final is the minimum achievement so why people are rejoicing after 2 sterile performances against genuine underdogs is beyond me unless hodgson has reduced expecatations to a new low.

Wages simply don't come into it as a measure of whether England should do well or not. High wages in the England team are a function of the cash flushing around in our domestic league, which is down to the free market system we have and the Premier League's ability to sell rights to broadcasters.

If anything the fact that the PL pays high wages is hindering the national side. Players from other countries are able to play here and benefit from PL wages as well, which hinders English players from developing. Look at the fact that Spain and Germany are generally said to make up the top 3 leagues in the world alongside the Premier League, yet there are more players at this tournament from the PL than from the Spain and German leagues put together. How's that working out for us?

You're barking up the wrong tree. I've read Tomkins' book and it's about the impact of how money is spent in the Premier League and the fact that higher wages (but not transfer fees) equate to better performance at club level. Doesn't he even make the point that the money in the PL isn't helping England? If you want a better example read Simon Kuper's Soccernomics which is a much better book and actually looks at why international football teams do well, rather than club sides. He finds that it is generally linked to things like population and tournament football experience and reckons that England are actually overachieving.

More than happy to take up the book recommendation from you and Jazz. Population
and tournament experience, that's an interesting selection of variables. England have lot of both like. obviously he doesn't factor in premiership wages/champions league experience as i suggest but anyway I'll defo have a look and stack up his evidence. Just on the Ireland thing, the biggest weakness with them is that they no longer have the players they used to have in the top echelons of the premiership (Keane, Mcgrath, Whelan, Houghton etc). I should maybe have translated premiership as the top 5 as it is an important distinction. England's last starting line up had 10 Champions league players.

[Vokuhila]

Has anyone else been playing the Multiball drinking game? You have to take a drink each time there's more than one ball on the pitch. I was on a serious ginger beer high after about twenty minutes last night.

On a side note, I notice Chiellini's been ruled out of the game on Sunday.

[princes town]

Has anyone else been playing the Multiball drinking game? You have to take a drink each time there's more than one ball on the pitch. I was on a serious ginger beer high after about twenty minutes last night.

On a side note, I notice Chiellini's been ruled out of the game on Sunday.

Cracking news for England with Chiellini. Big strong leader for Italy and he'll be missed.

[Darlo4eva2012]

Who tells us that the Premiership is the best league in the world? Sky?

It is the best league in the world!

Spain has better players, better teams and better football - La Liga is the best league in the world

[lo36789]

that's good news. Especially as I don't really rate that Bonucci that highly.

I think their defence can be broken down, Hodgson won't do it but Walcott and Young from the start wouldn't allow their full backs to roam as much. If their full backs don't roam then Glen Johnson and Ashley Cole should have a pretty easy night and will have some space to get forward.

It's going to be a tough old night for our centre midfield though - we are going to have to go 4-5-1 I think that is unavoidable. I'd be tempted to play Milner more centrally as it is going to be A LOT of running to keep tabs on Marchisio, Pirlo, De Rossie etc. as they pass it around.

If they play Balotelli/Cassano I am not too concerned for Lescott & Terry as they are more than capable of handling them...if they decide to bring Giovinco on at some point as legs get tired...I can see both our centre backs being tied in knots before being completely stripped for pace.

[lo36789]

Spain has better players, better teams and better football - La Liga is the best league in the world

Depends if you appreciate good defending or not...just so happens I do and don't mind a scrappy 0-0 draw with plenty of strong hard challenges throughout.

In Spain I am pretty sure in training the defenders must just join in with passing practise with the rest of the squad and do zero work on position/organisation at the back.

[al_quaker]

Who tells us that the Premiership is the best league in the world? Sky?

It is the best league in the world!

Spain has better players, better teams and better football - La Liga is the best league in the world

it's not as entertaining though.

[Jazz Maverick]

Spain has better players, better teams and better football - La Liga is the best league in the world

Depends if you appreciate good defending or not...just so happens I do and don't mind a scrappy 0-0 draw with plenty of strong hard challenges throughout.

In Spain I am pretty sure in training the defenders must just join in with passing practise with the rest of the squad and do zero work on position/organisation at the back.

Yeah, of course they don't. Everyone knows those tippy tappy spaniards don't like tackling. My arse.

Some of the stuff you come out with is embarrassing.

You're such a boring c***, at least most boring fuckers are boring because they know a lot about a given subject. You don't even have that going for you.

[lo36789]

Yeah, of course they don't. Everyone knows those tippy tappy spaniards don't like tackling. My arse.

Because my last paragraph was said with complete seriousness...

The quality of defending in Spain is shocking - Alan Hansen would have a field day...but clearly I know they don't just spend training playing 1 touch keep ball...

Get a grip lad, your ability to jump on comments which aren't said seriously is pretty embarrassing for you.

My point was merely that the Spanish game isn't as entertaining as the defensive side of it isn't as good, but clearly unless someone spells something out to you exactly as it is meant you struggle to interpret correctly.

[Jazz Maverick]

Yeah, of course they don't. Everyone knows those tippy tappy spaniards don't like tackling. My arse.

Because my last paragraph was said with complete seriousness...

The quality of defending in Spain is shocking - Alan Hansen would have a field day...but clearly I know they don't just spend training playing 1 touch keep ball...

Get a grip lad, your ability to jump on comments which aren't said seriously is pretty embarrassing for you.

My point was merely that the Spanish game isn't as entertaining as the defensive side of it isn't as good, but clearly unless someone spells something out to you exactly as it is meant you struggle to interpret correctly.

Oh do fuck off, you say stupider things than that on a regular basis so don't try the whole 'it was a joke' thing, it doesn't wash. Besides, even if you were being sarcastic you need some semblance of humour or personality to pull it off, and you have neither unfortunately.

Is their defending 'shocking' my arse. They use a more zonal technique than us which can be seen as too expansive by introverted sky sports drones like you who've never watched anything other than English pundits telling you the English way is the only way to play the game. You realise that games in the Spanish league and involving the national side don't all finish 3-2, 5-3 and 6-5 right?

It's beyond me that you can live in a era when the Spanish national team is dominant in Europe and the world, and Spanish domestic teams always populate or win the big European tournaments and then claim that their style of defending is shocking.

[Jazz Maverick]

England have lot of both like. obviously he doesn't factor in premiership wages/champions league experience as i suggest but anyway I'll defo have a look and stack up his evidence. Just on the Ireland thing, the biggest weakness with them is that they no longer have the players they used to have in the top echelons of the premiership (Keane, Mcgrath, Whelan, Houghton etc). I should maybe have translated premiership as the top 5 as it is an important distinction. England's last starting line up had 10 Champions league players.

But then you claim England havent played well at this tournament, which surely debunks your own champs league players = good national team theory?

[lo36789]

No the english way is not necessarily the best way to defend, in fact watching italian football they are much tighter defensively but unfortunately italian football is played at the perfect tempo to do your ironing to (not actually my words stolen from a uni lecturer).

English football is a lot tighter than Spanish football that is the way of it...and personally (which i did say it was a personal opinion as there is no this football is better than the other) I find that a lot more exciting.

[fat tony]

England have lot of both like. obviously he doesn't factor in premiership wages/champions league experience as i suggest but anyway I'll defo have a look and stack up his evidence. Just on the Ireland thing, the biggest weakness with them is that they no longer have the players they used to have in the top echelons of the premiership (Keane, Mcgrath, Whelan, Houghton etc). I should maybe have translated premiership as the top 5 as it is an important distinction. England's last starting line up had 10 Champions league players.

But then you claim England havent played well at this tournament, which surely debunks your own champs league players = good national team theory?

It's also a bit vague to say England had '10 Champions League players'. The truth is that 5 of them (Hart, Lescott, Young, Milner, Wellbeck) were playing in the tournament for the first time last season (Wellbeck possibly had previous limited appearances?) and those 5 didn't even get the chance to play in the knock-out rounds. This is not an England team with bags of big-game European / international experience.

[princes town]

England have lot of both like. obviously he doesn't factor in premiership wages/champions league experience as i suggest but anyway I'll defo have a look and stack up his evidence. Just on the Ireland thing, the biggest weakness with them is that they no longer have the players they used to have in the top echelons of the premiership (Keane, Mcgrath, Whelan, Houghton etc). I should maybe have translated premiership as the top 5 as it is an important distinction. England's last starting line up had 10 Champions league players.

But then you claim England havent played well at this tournament, which surely debunks your own champs league players = good national team theory?

The problem with theories is you can get them prove to what you want. I think England have played well in adapting to a system of play but yes my expectations of England's overall performance would have been greater given the profiles of the players so my theory is not working. I also recognise that performance judgements are subjective and my purist total football perspective isn't everybody's idea of good performance. My mate thinks performance is judged solely by results. The acid test is really Sunday when 2 teams enriched with champions league players battle it out.

[Spyman]

England have lot of both like. obviously he doesn't factor in premiership wages/champions league experience as i suggest but anyway I'll defo have a look and stack up his evidence. Just on the Ireland thing, the biggest weakness with them is that they no longer have the players they used to have in the top echelons of the premiership (Keane, Mcgrath, Whelan, Houghton etc). I should maybe have translated premiership as the top 5 as it is an important distinction. England's last starting line up had 10 Champions league players.

But then you claim England havent played well at this tournament, which surely debunks your own champs league players = good national team theory?

The problem with theories is you can get them prove to what you want. I think England have played well in adapting to a system of play but yes my expectations of England's overall performance would have been greater given the profiles of the players so my theory is not working. I also recognise that performance judgements are subjective and my purist total football perspective isn't everybody's idea of good performance. My mate thinks performance is judged solely by results. The acid test is really Sunday when 2 teams enriched with champions league players battle it out.

But haven't you learnt over the last decade that despite these 'high profile' players have, they have repeatedly failed to deliver at International level? Therefore mediocre performances should be the level of expectation when they play for England, as that is all most of them have delivered up until now.

Of the 'experienced' group, which probably now includes Terry, Cole, Gerrard and Rooney (aside from those that are injured), I'd say only Ashley Cole has consistantly delivered to the same level as he does for his club during his England career.

[Jazz Maverick]

Exactly - expecting England to be realistic challengers at International tournaments is the equivalent of expecting Aston Villa to suddenly win the Premier League. Theres no reason or evidence as to why this would happen.

[princes town]

England have lot of both like. obviously he doesn't factor in premiership wages/champions league experience as i suggest but anyway I'll defo have a look and stack up his evidence. Just on the Ireland thing, the biggest weakness with them is that they no longer have the players they used to have in the top echelons of the premiership (Keane, Mcgrath, Whelan, Houghton etc). I should maybe have translated premiership as the top 5 as it is an important distinction. England's last starting line up had 10 Champions league players.

But then you claim England havent played well at this tournament, which surely debunks your own champs league players = good national team theory?

It's also a bit vague to say England had '10 Champions League players'. The truth is that 5 of them (Hart, Lescott, Young, Milner, Wellbeck) were playing in the tournament for the first time last season (Wellbeck possibly had previous limited appearances?) and those 5 didn't even get the chance to play in the knock-out rounds. This is not an England team with bags of big-game European / international experience.

Good point.

[Spyman]

Exactly - expecting England to be realistic challengers at International tournaments is the equivalent of expecting Aston Villa to suddenly win the Premier League. Theres no reason or evidence as to why this would happen.

Well, not exactly. Many of the England players ARE proven winners at club level and do the business every week. They SHOULD, without doubt, have achieved more at International level - they are not average players.

The same can't be said for Villa.

[princes town]

Yeah, of course they don't. Everyone knows those tippy tappy spaniards don't like tackling. My arse.

My point was merely that the Spanish game isn't as entertaining as the defensive side of it isn't as good, but clearly unless someone spells something out to you exactly as it is meant you struggle to interpret correctly.

I'm not sure you can say it is better or worse. The Spanish generally play to the concept that attack is the best form of defence. They are taught to (i) retain possession of the ball. If the other team don't have the ball they can't score which is why the defenders are well versed in ball retention, (ii) play a more zonal marking game and (iii) when they lose the ball upfield, PRESS the opposition and get it back rather than sit in and withdraw. Even the forwards do this. I would be hard pressed to find anybody who would say that Piquet, Ramos or Puyol wouldn't make it or be close to the England team. Not worse just different.

[princes town]

that's good news. Especially as I don't really rate that Bonucci that highly.

I think their defence can be broken down, Hodgson won't do it but Walcott and Young from the start wouldn't allow their full backs to roam as much. If their full backs don't roam then Glen Johnson and Ashley Cole should have a pretty easy night and will have some space to get forward.

It's going to be a tough old night for our centre midfield though - we are going to have to go 4-5-1 I think that is unavoidable. I'd be tempted to play Milner more centrally as it is going to be A LOT of running to keep tabs on Marchisio, Pirlo, De Rossie etc. as they pass it around. If they play Balotelli/Cassano I am not too concerned for Lescott & Terry as they are more than capable of handling them...if they decide to bring Giovinco on at some point as legs get tired...I can see both our centre backs being tied in knots before being completely stripped for pace.

Why on earth did Juventus sell Giovinco? Reminds me of Beckham at a young age although physically less imposing. I do worry about Cassano as he is a very clever player. His movement is sensational and the type of player that could upset England's rigid mana marking system. However outdoing all of these players is Pirlo who is just pure class. If Juventus manage to keep him next year, i'd seriously think about them as strong champions league contenders. Marchisio is also a highly gifted player.

[DarloOnTheUp]

that's good news. Especially as I don't really rate that Bonucci that highly.

I think their defence can be broken down, Hodgson won't do it but Walcott and Young from the start wouldn't allow their full backs to roam as much. If their full backs don't roam then Glen Johnson and Ashley Cole should have a pretty easy night and will have some space to get forward.

It's going to be a tough old night for our centre midfield though - we are going to have to go 4-5-1 I think that is unavoidable. I'd be tempted to play Milner more centrally as it is going to be A LOT of running to keep tabs on Marchisio, Pirlo, De Rossie etc. as they pass it around. If they play Balotelli/Cassano I am not too concerned for Lescott & Terry as they are more than capable of handling them...if they decide to bring Giovinco on at some point as legs get tired...I can see both our centre backs being tied in knots before being completely stripped for pace.

Why on earth did Juventus sell Giovinco? Reminds me of Beckham at a young age although physically less imposing. I do worry about Cassano as he is a very clever player. His movement is sensational and the type of player that could upset England's rigid mana marking system. However outdoing all of these players is Pirlo who is just pure class. If Juventus manage to keep him next year, i'd seriously think about them as strong champions league contenders. Marchisio is also a highly gifted player.

Italy would be a better side with Matri there. I was surprised when he wasn't picked.

[Jazz Maverick]

Exactly - expecting England to be realistic challengers at International tournaments is the equivalent of expecting Aston Villa to suddenly win the Premier League. Theres no reason or evidence as to why this would happen.

Well, not exactly. Many of the England players ARE proven winners at club level and do the business every week. They SHOULD, without doubt, have achieved more at International level - they are not average players.

The same can't be said for Villa.

My comparison was simply regarding two teams who've done nothing in their respective competitions recently, Not the players that make up said teams.

[princes town]

Exactly - expecting England to be realistic challengers at International tournaments is the equivalent of expecting Aston Villa to suddenly win the Premier League. Theres no reason or evidence as to why this would happen.

Well, not exactly. Many of the England players ARE proven winners at club level and do the business every week. They SHOULD, without doubt, have achieved more at International level - they are not average players.

The same can't be said for Villa.

My comparison was simply regarding two teams who've done nothing in their respective competitions recently, Not the players that make up said teams.

I understood what you were saying. previous international form is the best guide to expectations. it does raise the thorny quesiton as to why the Englabnd find it so difficult to make this transition unless the manager try and get them to do things they can't do. Gerrard is a player that springs to mind. my mate has the most intersting theory that these tournaments are generally held in hot conditions which doesn't lend itself to the english style of play. Anyway, i'm that f*cked off with the FA at this present time I can't be bothered with the climatological argument.

[Darlo4eva2012]

Why on earth did Juventus sell Giovinco?

they didnt

They sent him on loan to Parma with the option of buying 50% of his transfer rights at the end of the season, they did this, so he went to Parma for one year, now Juve have terminated the player sharing agreement and he is still their player until 2015

[princes town]

Why on earth did Juventus sell Giovinco?

they didnt

They sent him on loan to Parma with the option of buying 50% of his transfer rights at the end of the season, they did this, so he went to Parma for one year, now Juve have terminated the player sharing agreement and he is still their player until 2015

OK thanks for that. Looks a really classy player.

Bit strange Martin Keown's comment that Portugal are nothing without Ronaldo. To me they've got loads of classy players all over the park.

[lo36789]

I found the Pearce/Keown combination rather interesting. Keown wasn't having any of Pearce's interpretations on fouls at all!

[Norm_D_Ploom]

Why on earth did Juventus sell Giovinco?

they didnt

They sent him on loan to Parma with the option of buying 50% of his transfer rights at the end of the season, they did this, so he went to Parma for one year, now Juve have terminated the player sharing agreement and he is still their player until 2015

OK thanks for that. Looks a really classy player.

Bit strange Martin Keown's comment that Portugal are nothing without Ronaldo. To me they've got loads of classy players all over the park.

They have but like Argentina in 86 you can't help thinking that he lifts them to a level that they probably wouldn't be at without him.

[princes town]

Why on earth did Juventus sell Giovinco?

they didnt

They sent him on loan to Parma with the option of buying 50% of his transfer rights at the end of the season, they did this, so he went to Parma for one year, now Juve have terminated the player sharing agreement and he is still their player until 2015

OK thanks for that. Looks a really classy player.

Bit strange Martin Keown's comment that Portugal are nothing without Ronaldo. To me they've got loads of classy players all over the park.

They have but like Argentina in 86 you can't help thinking that he lifts them to a level that they probably wouldn't be at without him.

He is definitely the key man, I agree. I wonder how Portugal will do without Postiga. I didn't think Almeira did well at all when he came on.

[Spyman]

Postiga is utter garbage, so I'm sure they'll do just fine without him.