impact on ground capacity

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poppyfield
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impact on ground capacity

Post by poppyfield » Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:55 pm

I thought i would take a look at how 17% or 30% attendance would impact on our league, of course i don't know what % might be, as you can see even clubs with a large capacity and good attendance will find it difficult, obviously the likes of Gateshead will be fine.

The clubs who have benefactor will be ok, but a lot of clubs are going to struggle.
Tried to get the average home attendance right. The key though is how this will have a massive impact on DFC.

Hopefully the fans who don't think playing at the Arena in these difficult times is a good idea , will think again.


Capacity.............................................17%.............................30%....... Average home Attendance.

1. Gateshead......11,800...................2006............................3540.............................978
2. York City..8000...........................1360............................2400............................2705
3. Hereford FC....7,100 ...................1207............................2130............................2047
4. Boston United...5000....................850.............................1500............................1304
5. AFC Telford United.. 6,300.............1071.............................1890...........................1148
6. Kidderminster Harriers....6,238......1060.............................1871...........................1364
7. Southport.......6,008...................1021.............................1802........................... 993
8. Fylde......6,000.........................1020.............................1800...........................1479
9. Chester FC......5,328.................. 905..............................1598...........................2019
10. Blyth Spartans..4,435..................753...............................1330...........................836
11. Chorley....4,100........................ 697...............................1230...........................1272
12. Curzon Ashton.4,000.................. 680..............................1200...........................376
13. Farsley Celtic..4,000.................. 680..............................1200...........................511
14. Alfreton Town..3,600...................612..............................1080...........................497
15. Bradford Park Avenue 3,500...........595..............................1050...........................484
16. Brackley Town. 3,500...................595..............................1050...........................532
17. Darlington FC..3,100...................527...............................930............................1471
18. Spennymoor Town 4300................731...............................1290..........................1183
19. Guiseley..3,000.........................510................................900...........................793
20. Gloucester City.......3,000........... 510................................900...........................421
21. Kettering Town 2,400..................408................................720...........................750
22. Leamington.... 2,300..................391................................690...........................517
Last edited by poppyfield on Wed Aug 19, 2020 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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lo36789
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Re: impact on ground capacity

Post by lo36789 » Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:07 pm

The FA guidance makes for interesting viewing. Maximum attendance for step 3-6 is to be determined by the minimum capacity required to meet ground grading not the actual grading of the ground.

That means for example AFC Bury at their step operate with a maximum attendance of 300 (30% of 1000 - the minimum capacity at their step)

Whereas Radcliffe Borough will have a maximum capacity of 600 (30% of 1950 - the minimum capacity at their step - yes the figure is rounded up)

The irony is of course that they both play at the exact same ground.

If this guidance were to be applied at our level moving to the Arena will be pointless as we will be capped by the minimum capacity for the level anyway.

Darlogramps
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impact on ground capacity

Post by Darlogramps » Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:41 pm

Minimum figure at our level is 3,000.

So if the same figures were applied - a 15% cap would be 450, and 30% cap would be 900.

In short, moving to the Arena would be a waste of money, if this is how they end up doing it for Step 2 as well. We shall see.
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LoidLucan
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Re: impact on ground capacity

Post by LoidLucan » Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:04 pm

It's still not yet certain that Boston will be able to kick off next season in their new ground and if they do manage it there will still only be two stands ready, so that will affect the capacity. They have previously said they have a groundshare option in place should the Covid delays mean the new ground can't open for the start of the new season.

biccynana
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Re: impact on ground capacity

Post by biccynana » Wed Aug 19, 2020 4:03 pm

LoidLucan wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:04 pm
It's still not yet certain that Boston will be able to kick off next season in their new ground and if they do manage it there will still only be two stands ready, so that will affect the capacity. They have previously said they have a groundshare option in place should the Covid delays mean the new ground can't open for the start of the new season.
Can't be many grounds in that neck of the woods that would meet NLN requirements surely? Presumably the groundshare would have to be King's Lynn or Lincoln.

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Re: impact on ground capacity

Post by LoidLucan » Wed Aug 19, 2020 4:58 pm

Yes, I think they would be the likely ones if they can't get the new ground into a useable state.

EDJOHNS
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Re: impact on ground capacity

Post by EDJOHNS » Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:10 pm

Darlogramps wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:41 pm
Minimum figure at our level is 3,000.

So if the same figures were applied - a 15% cap would be 450, and 30% cap would be 900.

In short, moving to the Arena would be a waste of money, if this is how they end up doing it for Step 2 as well. We shall see.
Gramps, (Serious conversation so PLEASE don't turn it into yet another point scoring exercise).
At 450 that means about 200 season ticket holders can't attend and even with 900 many regular supporters will not get in.
I think the club have to take in any bad feeling this may cause and have at the back of their minds any backlash to future fund raising.
It is all well and good saying people have the club at heart. Many rugby league clubs have been hit by up to 30% of season pass holders asking for refunds for their tickets even though every club is in 1 way or another streaming both "home" and "away" games FREE to every member.
Can you imagine the problems the club would face financially if possibly up to 200 people ask for a refund on their season tickets because they are not allowed to attend?
My club Hull KR actually have the lowest number asking for refunds but even we have 6% asking for them. Even that figure would cause massive cash flow problems when no money is coming in.
Finally, having players on contracts already, the budget was set and it would be very difficult to reduce it now. I am sure that all the figures for both staying put and also going to the arena have been well and truly checked and double checked before the club decided to air this in public.

quaker4life
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Re: impact on ground capacity

Post by quaker4life » Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:31 pm

Darlogramps wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:41 pm
Minimum figure at our level is 3,000.

So if the same figures were applied - a 15% cap would be 450, and 30% cap would be 900.

In short, moving to the Arena would be a waste of money, if this is how they end up doing it for Step 2 as well. We shall see.
I would imagine the NL/NLN/NLS will follow a similar route and the % will increase the higher you go, the Premier League were aiming to open grounds at 40% capacity.
love it! wrote:Considering we are Darlington 1883 I'm happy that we are named correctly

lo36789
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Re: impact on ground capacity

Post by lo36789 » Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:47 pm

quaker4life wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:31 pm
Darlogramps wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:41 pm
Minimum figure at our level is 3,000.

So if the same figures were applied - a 15% cap would be 450, and 30% cap would be 900.

In short, moving to the Arena would be a waste of money, if this is how they end up doing it for Step 2 as well. We shall see.
I would imagine the NL/NLN/NLS will follow a similar route and the % will increase the higher you go, the Premier League were aiming to open grounds at 40% capacity.
I doubt it. There is no logical reason for the % to increase. It's flat across all the steps so far.

In fact you would argue the number would be less the higher you go as traditionally there would be segregation in place.

The question will be whether given all grounds above step 2, with their elite status, have a certified capacity that the clubs can use them. Reading between the lines of the FA doc that isn't necessarily the case below that.

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Re: impact on ground capacity

Post by Darlogramps » Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:58 pm

EDJOHNS wrote:
Darlogramps wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:41 pm
Minimum figure at our level is 3,000.

So if the same figures were applied - a 15% cap would be 450, and 30% cap would be 900.

In short, moving to the Arena would be a waste of money, if this is how they end up doing it for Step 2 as well. We shall see.
Gramps, (Serious conversation so PLEASE don't turn it into yet another point scoring exercise).
At 450 that means about 200 season ticket holders can't attend and even with 900 many regular supporters will not get in.
I think the club have to take in any bad feeling this may cause and have at the back of their minds any backlash to future fund raising.
It is all well and good saying people have the club at heart. Many rugby league clubs have been hit by up to 30% of season pass holders asking for refunds for their tickets even though every club is in 1 way or another streaming both "home" and "away" games FREE to every member.
Can you imagine the problems the club would face financially if possibly up to 200 people ask for a refund on their season tickets because they are not allowed to attend?
My club Hull KR actually have the lowest number asking for refunds but even we have 6% asking for them. Even that figure would cause massive cash flow problems when no money is coming in.
Finally, having players on contracts already, the budget was set and it would be very difficult to reduce it now. I am sure that all the figures for both staying put and also going to the arena have been well and truly checked and double checked before the club decided to air this in public.
At 900, we’d be at least able to get all season-ticket holders in, plus a couple of hundred more (presumably on an all-ticket, first come, first served basis).

450 gets much trickier. As you say we’d be looking at 100-200 refunds. Times are hard and as much as people care for the club, no one will hand over a couple of hundred quid and get nothing back.

I can only speculate about the answer if it’s 450. Do the club do a random draw to decide who gets in? Or rotate it so everyone gets in for some games but no one gets to see 100% of the attendance. Perhaps they could offer a refund, offset against a reduced rate for online streaming. But as you say, that may not placate everyone. For instance, it wouldn’t appeal to those who go to the match because of the social aspect of meeting friends etc.

I think there would be an acceptance from most supporters about the current difficult circumstances. That won’t extend to not asking for a refund, however I don’t think there will be as much bad will, as people recognise the limitations the club has to work under.

But for all the reasons you’ve listed, financially it will be very difficult if we can’t get back to 100% of our usual attendance. And it would hit us hard as we don’t have a benefactor who can just cover any losses.
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al_quaker
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Re: impact on ground capacity

Post by al_quaker » Wed Aug 19, 2020 7:14 pm

Step 2 and above seem to be classed as 'elite' sport. I wonder if the FA decided that for non-elite football (ie step 3 downwards), it was easier as a flat % of minimum capacity for the level. Calculating exact capacities of each stadia will take a bit of work I would imagine, which would fall on increasingly small pools of volunteers, particularly at relatively short notice. The expectations of 'elite' teams may differ

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theoriginalfatcat
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Re: impact on ground capacity

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Wed Aug 19, 2020 7:20 pm

If these restrictions come in they should all about health. People’s health and well being Is what this is all about.

So if a club plays in a large, new, safe stadium and it’s safe for say 5000 to turn up then that’s okay, but conversely if they have a small 5000 capacity and spectators will be crammed in, then it’s obviously not okay.

One size doesn’t fit all.

Ps al-Quaker, it wouldn’t take much of a calculation to work out each grounds capacity in the lower steps. Most of these figures will surely be easily available.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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lo36789
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Re: impact on ground capacity

Post by lo36789 » Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:37 pm

theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 7:20 pm
Ps al-Quaker, it wouldn’t take much of a calculation to work out each grounds capacity in the lower steps. Most of these figures will surely be easily available.
I'm not sure - it's not that they couldn't work it out but I know in the North West Counties most clubs don't have an official graded capacity.

At the levels that are set at 1000 the ground grading doesn't require a capacity. It does however say the ground must be enclosed and must have hard standing around the perimeter. It also mandates a number of seats and separate covered stands.

A lot of the clubs that install stands at that level don't actually gain on capacity because the cheapest pre-fabricated stands are only 4 deep so it doesn't add anything once the hard standing in front is taken away.

Very crudely though. Minimum pitch dimensions are 90m x 45m (+ 2m run off gives a minimum perimeter of the playing area of 282m) multiplied by 4 people which is how hard standing is measured gives 1128 or 338 people. Applying rounding for simplicity = 1000 and 300.

I don't actually know how Lower Breck and Skelmersdale get away with their grounds mind. Their perimeter boundary is the green mesh of the 4G hubsites and they only have hard standing on two sides. I would be surprised if they would achieve 500 under ground grading measurements never mind 1000.

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dfc4me
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Re: impact on ground capacity

Post by dfc4me » Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:09 pm

If we do follow the leagues below and have a 900 cap then the arena is a non starter. So we need to find a safe way of getting 900 safely into BM. If 550 is with 2m social distancing could we go for 1m sd and make face masks compulsory. I know face masks aren’t exactly popular but it would get all season ticket holders in and I think many olde fans would feel safer among 900 people with masks than 550 without them. Hopefully we could then make up some of the financial shortfall with live streaming.

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theoriginalfatcat
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Re: impact on ground capacity

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:15 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:37 pm
theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 7:20 pm
Ps al-Quaker, it wouldn’t take much of a calculation to work out each grounds capacity in the lower steps. Most of these figures will surely be easily available.
I'm not sure - it's not that they couldn't work it out but I know in the North West Counties most clubs don't have an official graded capacity.

At the levels that are set at 1000 the ground grading doesn't require a capacity. It does however say the ground must be enclosed and must have hard standing around the perimeter. It also mandates a number of seats and separate covered stands.

A lot of the clubs that install stands at that level don't actually gain on capacity because the cheapest pre-fabricated stands are only 4 deep so it doesn't add anything once the hard standing in front is taken away.

Very crudely though. Minimum pitch dimensions are 90m x 45m (+ 2m run off gives a minimum perimeter of the playing area of 282m) multiplied by 4 people which is how hard standing is measured gives 1128 or 338 people. Applying rounding for simplicity = 1000 and 300.

I don't actually know how Lower Breck and Skelmersdale get away with their grounds mind. Their perimeter boundary is the green mesh of the 4G hubsites and they only have hard standing on two sides. I would be surprised if they would achieve 500 under ground grading measurements never mind 1000.
I see your point. I think I’ve forgotten how small scale some of these clubs are. I should cast my mind back to the start of our 1883 phase.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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jjljks
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Re: impact on ground capacity

Post by jjljks » Thu Aug 20, 2020 4:49 am

Surely we should be using the same people who estimated for Government the number of Covid19 tests by counting only the kits sent out, rather than the ones returned completed. They were only 1.3 million out. By their calcs BM should easily get a capacity for 100k so everyone in Darlo could go.
Trouble is, the FA & League seemed to have used the OfQual boffins & come up with a solution which downgraded most pupils😱

en passant
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Re: impact on ground capacity

Post by en passant » Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:01 am

What is the purpose behind resticting crowds?

To ensure a safe environment in which to enjoy our sport.

The purpose is not to hack off supporters by preventing those who wish to attend from doing so.
The purpose is not to destroy the viability of small clubs with narrow margins from existing by making sure they cannot get enough bodies through the door to make opening up worthwhile.
Unlike other industries that have narrow margins, like some restaurants and bars, we cannot act unilaterally and wait for an optimum moment to open, when other places can afford to do so.
We are in a business where everyone in a league stays shut or everyone opens.
So any government or governing body that oversees the task of getting things started again, cannot make this only acceptable and viable for the minority, or even the majority. They have to get a solution that will suit everyone, and to make it possible for all clubs to survive under whatever restrictions they deem necessary. If this means unique solutions, like moving grounds, or looking at more relaxed solutions for having large numbers attend, then these have to be considered, and not be implemented on a one size fits all. Otherwise they might as well give up this season for lower league clubs and, like small coffee shops, decide that we cannot afford to trade at this time.

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Re: impact on ground capacity

Post by al_quaker » Thu Aug 20, 2020 2:30 pm

https://twitter.com/Ollie_Bayliss/statu ... 13153?s=20

Well it looks like the National League want the same rules as the rest of non-league. Maybe this is just temporary for friendlies, considering the season doesn't kick off until October when fans returning to 'elite' sport is planned.

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Re: impact on ground capacity

Post by lo36789 » Fri Aug 21, 2020 10:35 am

That would make the Arena a pointless move them as we'd have a ceiling regardless.

Not sure how much clubs like Wrexham, Chesterfield, Notts County and Stockport would support this.

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Re: impact on ground capacity

Post by Vodka_Vic » Fri Aug 21, 2020 11:01 am

You would have thought that being classified as Elite Level sport, the criteria for steps 1 and 2 would be different. Not sure the clubs that have been mentioned would accept the FA putting an articificial limit which is over and above government guidelines. If they can still get crowds of 3,000 but satisfy government guidelines for social distancing, why should they be restricted? It's not a level playing field in other walks of life too regarding Covid guidelines. Small retail outlets can accept less customers at any one time the bigger retail outlets but have bigger overheads. If this is announced as per the Tweet I expect some resistance, threats of legal action for restraint of trade and U turns.

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Re: impact on ground capacity

Post by al_quaker » Fri Aug 21, 2020 11:04 am

https://twitter.com/Ollie_Bayliss/statu ... 71200?s=20

NPL chairman already lobbying for a change to stadium specific limits.

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Re: impact on ground capacity

Post by Mister e » Fri Aug 21, 2020 1:18 pm

A BBC article on the newsfeed yesterday showed a sporting event in Wuhan I think it may have been a swimming gala big crowd in no face masks no social distancing and bearing in mind this is where the outbreak began just two months before our season was put on hold let us hold on to the dream when we resume on October 3rd the nightmare may finally be approaching an end for us too. I'm also delighted to see a few clubs below our level can let fans into friendlies this weekend there was an excellent article about marske United on look North this lunchtime.

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Re: impact on ground capacity

Post by spen666 » Fri Aug 21, 2020 1:48 pm

Mister e wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 1:18 pm
A BBC article on the newsfeed yesterday showed a sporting event in Wuhan I think it may have been a swimming gala big crowd in no face masks no social distancing and bearing in mind this is where the outbreak began just two months before our season was put on hold let us hold on to the dream when we resume on October 3rd the nightmare may finally be approaching an end for us too......
Of course, the issue is not Wuhan allowing an event without social distancing, but what are the consequences.

We have seen increases in Covid cases across the world as social distancing is eased.

Sadly, we do not have the ability to sit back and wait to see what happens in Wuhan or elsewhere before making decisions here.

I don't envy those making the decisions, or the officials at clubs trying to implement them

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Re: impact on ground capacity

Post by jjljks » Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:23 pm

Mister e wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 1:18 pm
A BBC article on the newsfeed yesterday showed a sporting event in Wuhan I think it may have been a swimming gala big crowd in no face masks no social distancing and bearing in mind this is where the outbreak began just two months before our season was put on hold let us hold on to the dream when we resume on October 3rd the nightmare may finally be approaching an end for us too. I'm also delighted to see a few clubs below our level can let fans into friendlies this weekend there was an excellent article about marske United on look North this lunchtime.
Face Marske in face masks then?😄

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Re: impact on ground capacity

Post by EDJOHNS » Fri Aug 21, 2020 5:55 pm

jjljks wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:23 pm
Mister e wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 1:18 pm
A BBC article on the newsfeed yesterday showed a sporting event in Wuhan I think it may have been a swimming gala big crowd in no face masks no social distancing and bearing in mind this is where the outbreak began just two months before our season was put on hold let us hold on to the dream when we resume on October 3rd the nightmare may finally be approaching an end for us too. I'm also delighted to see a few clubs below our level can let fans into friendlies this weekend there was an excellent article about marske United on look North this lunchtime.
Face Marske in face masks then?😄
Sorry, no chance of it being over and done with any time soon because of selfish people refusing to be co-operative. I had to go into town yesterday. Sunny day, lots of people, no social distancing and very few masks, including masks below the nose and mask under the chin !!! WTF is that about?

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Re: impact on ground capacity

Post by m62exile » Fri Aug 21, 2020 6:03 pm

Mister e wrote:A BBC article on the newsfeed yesterday showed a sporting event in Wuhan I think it may have been a swimming gala big crowd in no face masks no social distancing and bearing in mind this is where the outbreak began just two months before our season was put on hold let us hold on to the dream when we resume on October 3rd the nightmare may finally be approaching an end for us too. I'm also delighted to see a few clubs below our level can let fans into friendlies this weekend there was an excellent article about marske United on look North this lunchtime.
Pretty sure China haven’t had a single domestic case for months now.


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Re: impact on ground capacity

Post by jjljks » Sat Aug 22, 2020 5:49 am

m62exile wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 6:03 pm
Mister e wrote:A BBC article on the newsfeed yesterday showed a sporting event in Wuhan I think it may have been a swimming gala big crowd in no face masks no social distancing and bearing in mind this is where the outbreak began just two months before our season was put on hold let us hold on to the dream when we resume on October 3rd the nightmare may finally be approaching an end for us too. I'm also delighted to see a few clubs below our level can let fans into friendlies this weekend there was an excellent article about marske United on look North this lunchtime.
Pretty sure China haven’t had a single domestic case for months now.


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They would not admit it even if they had one.

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Re: impact on ground capacity

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Sat Aug 22, 2020 8:38 am

jjljks wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 5:49 am
m62exile wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 6:03 pm
Mister e wrote:A BBC article on the newsfeed yesterday showed a sporting event in Wuhan I think it may have been a swimming gala big crowd in no face masks no social distancing and bearing in mind this is where the outbreak began just two months before our season was put on hold let us hold on to the dream when we resume on October 3rd the nightmare may finally be approaching an end for us too. I'm also delighted to see a few clubs below our level can let fans into friendlies this weekend there was an excellent article about marske United on look North this lunchtime.
Pretty sure China haven’t had a single domestic case for months now.


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They would not admit it even if they had one.
Are you saying the Chinese government are untrustworthy ??
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

Tamworth matchday programme 26 Nov 2011

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Re: impact on ground capacity

Post by loan_star » Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:39 am

theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 8:38 am
jjljks wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 5:49 am
m62exile wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 6:03 pm
Mister e wrote:A BBC article on the newsfeed yesterday showed a sporting event in Wuhan I think it may have been a swimming gala big crowd in no face masks no social distancing and bearing in mind this is where the outbreak began just two months before our season was put on hold let us hold on to the dream when we resume on October 3rd the nightmare may finally be approaching an end for us too. I'm also delighted to see a few clubs below our level can let fans into friendlies this weekend there was an excellent article about marske United on look North this lunchtime.
Pretty sure China haven’t had a single domestic case for months now.


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They would not admit it even if they had one.
Are you saying the Chinese government are untrustworthy ??
The country where the virus started only having 3k deaths? :crazy:

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Re: impact on ground capacity

Post by Ghost_Of_1883 » Sat Aug 22, 2020 11:00 am

A country with over 1 billion population as well?!

I reckon 3k deaths was the hourly death rate not the total!
#Arenaherewecome

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