Poolies Feeling The Pinch

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Quaker85
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Poolies Feeling The Pinch

Post by Quaker85 » Sat Mar 06, 2021 1:17 pm

https://twitter.com/KieranMaguire/statu ... 7767908353

A couple of mortgage loans according to POF


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OYD
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Re: Poolies Feeling The Pinch

Post by OYD » Sat Mar 06, 2021 1:24 pm

Wot ???? A non league football club in financial difficulty............

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Re: Poolies Feeling The Pinch

Post by Darlo_Pete » Sat Mar 06, 2021 5:43 pm

Sadly it still doesn't stop them winning, rather impressively at Torquay today.

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Re: Poolies Feeling The Pinch

Post by tdk1 » Sat Mar 06, 2021 6:17 pm

Yes, I rather think the thing pools are most likely feeling at the moment is impending glory. As if this pandemic couldn't get any shittier.

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Re: Poolies Feeling The Pinch

Post by quakersfan » Sat Mar 06, 2021 6:30 pm

TBH I’m glad Pools are doing well in this current climate.

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Re: Poolies Feeling The Pinch

Post by Old Git » Sat Mar 06, 2021 6:48 pm

quakersfan wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 6:30 pm
TBH I’m glad Pools are doing well in this current climate.
I’m not. A playoff spot looks almost guaranteed but it seems increasingly likely they could win the League. Wonder if Raj is gambling everything on going up this season and what will happen if they don’t.

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Re: Poolies Feeling The Pinch

Post by darlo_baron » Sat Mar 06, 2021 7:02 pm

quakersfan wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 6:30 pm
TBH I’m glad Pools are doing well in this current climate.
Why?
Craig Liddle is God!!

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Re: Poolies Feeling The Pinch

Post by Darlofan97 » Sat Mar 06, 2021 7:50 pm

The debts to SAGE were ‘satisfied’ in December according to Companies House.

I am unsure if these new charges are the SAGE debt being reinstated on different terms, or new debt(s). It will be interesting to see what Singh is up to once the documents are available to download & view.

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Re: Poolies Feeling The Pinch

Post by Darlofan97 » Sat Mar 06, 2021 7:55 pm

darlo_baron wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 7:02 pm
quakersfan wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 6:30 pm
TBH I’m glad Pools are doing well in this current climate.
Why?
Exactly.

I couldn’t really care much about our rivalry - it has been a while since we last played them.

However, far the sheer fact that Singh is owner & Chairman of Pools, the same owner & Chairman that left us £1 million plus in debt, put us in administration and didn’t sign over the football share, means actually I certainly do not want to see Pools do well at all.

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Re: Poolies Feeling The Pinch

Post by quakersfan » Sun Mar 07, 2021 9:31 am

darlo_baron wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 7:02 pm
quakersfan wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 6:30 pm
TBH I’m glad Pools are doing well in this current climate.
Why?
Because I like to see all North East teams do well.

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Re: Poolies Feeling The Pinch

Post by Old Git » Sun Mar 07, 2021 10:59 am

quakersfan wrote:
Sun Mar 07, 2021 9:31 am
darlo_baron wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 7:02 pm
quakersfan wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 6:30 pm
TBH I’m glad Pools are doing well in this current climate.
Why?
Because I like to see all North East teams do well.
You must be a very nice chap 😁

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Re: Poolies Feeling The Pinch

Post by Darlofan97 » Mon Mar 08, 2021 7:42 pm

Good to see Singh learn his lesson from 2012 and secure his loans as a debenture against pretty much any assets Pools have of value.

Lock, stock & barrel.

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Re: Poolies Feeling The Pinch

Post by jjljks » Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:54 am

Poolies not the only ones feeling the pinch. Boreham Wood were surprised not to get the loan. Someone must have clocked their crowds did not merit the freebie dosh they got from the Lottery! :lol:

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Re: Poolies Feeling The Pinch

Post by lo36789 » Tue Mar 09, 2021 1:50 pm

jjljks wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:54 am
Poolies not the only ones feeling the pinch. Boreham Wood were surprised not to get the loan. Someone must have clocked their crowds did not merit the freebie dosh they got from the Lottery! :lol:
Partly...the more interesting thing is their letter actually highlights that the surplus they have made in previous years has effectively protected them. How on earth have Boreham Wood been making a trading profit?

Also interesting is the criteria for the funding.
- Clubs must show they are not trading viably on 31 March 2021. Despite clubs having obligations beyond that. We know it realisitcally won't be until August when they could start trading properly again OR
- that failure to provide support would inflict long-term damage on the sport with 'severe' consequences.

I am quite glad it didn't come to it, as I am not sure how eligible we would have been for a loan nevermind grants. No single club could tick the second bullet point and if it is based on financial needs at 31 March they would have been considerably different to financial needs come end of May.

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Re: Poolies Feeling The Pinch

Post by spen666 » Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:25 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 1:50 pm
jjljks wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:54 am
Poolies not the only ones feeling the pinch. Boreham Wood were surprised not to get the loan. Someone must have clocked their crowds did not merit the freebie dosh they got from the Lottery! :lol:
Partly...the more interesting thing is their letter actually highlights that the surplus they have made in previous years has effectively protected them. How on earth have Boreham Wood been making a trading profit?
.....
Income from Arsenal for use of their facilities?

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Re: Poolies Feeling The Pinch

Post by lo36789 » Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:37 pm

Guess it would go someway there. I mean Southport are getting £5k per game off Everton to host their u23s and women on a Sunday. Expect Arsenal would be paying slightly more.

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Re: Poolies Feeling The Pinch

Post by onewayup » Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:28 pm

Borehamwood able to compete because of the £252,000 well over paid from the original lottery funding, compared to gate revenues lost. Shenanigans going on there ,from national league management. Questions to be answered from them sometime, they are solely accountable for the disgraceful disproportionately disparity of that funding.

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Re: Poolies Feeling The Pinch

Post by don'tbuythesun » Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:29 pm

It will be interesting to see if the "shenanigans" are looked into/subject of an independent review
or will they just be brushed under the carpet? Only time will tell. Feels like they couldn't organise a drinking session in a beer making facility so I'm not holding my breath!

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Re: Poolies Feeling The Pinch

Post by jjljks » Wed Mar 10, 2021 6:57 am

lo36789 wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 1:50 pm
jjljks wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:54 am
Poolies not the only ones feeling the pinch. Boreham Wood were surprised not to get the loan. Someone must have clocked their crowds did not merit the freebie dosh they got from the Lottery! :lol:
Partly...the more interesting thing is their letter actually highlights that the surplus they have made in previous years has effectively protected them. How on earth have Boreham Wood been making a trading profit?

Also interesting is the criteria for the funding.
- Clubs must show they are not trading viably on 31 March 2021. Despite clubs having obligations beyond that. We know it realisitcally won't be until August when they could start trading properly again OR
- that failure to provide support would inflict long-term damage on the sport with 'severe' consequences.

I am quite glad it didn't come to it, as I am not sure how eligible we would have been for a loan nevermind grants. No single club could tick the second bullet point and if it is based on financial needs at 31 March they would have been considerably different to financial needs come end of May.
Think you are right, NL board probably would have used our BTB, QTV & 50/50 income against us in any application for a loan & refused us or only loaned us an insignificant sum. DJ & our board did the right thing to protect our club's long-term future
.

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Re: Poolies Feeling The Pinch

Post by lo36789 » Wed Mar 10, 2021 11:11 am

jjljks wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 6:57 am
NL board probably would have used our BTB, QTV & 50/50 income against us in any application for a loan & refused us or only loaned us an insignificant sum.
Just to be clear these loans have nothing to do with the NL board.

But yes any income would be considered it's about the financial position of the club not lost revenue.

Borehamwood state that. The owner remortgaged his house and took a personal loan to put some cash in and that has been considered as showing financial viability.

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Re: Poolies Feeling The Pinch

Post by onewayup » Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:35 pm

So what happened to the vast overpayment of lottery funding that went into boreham woods account. £252,000 in case anyone forgot their allocation. They were not the only club to receive that funding level. WRONGLY. if it had followed the original plan of lost revenue through the turnstiles.

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Re: Poolies Feeling The Pinch

Post by lo36789 » Wed Mar 10, 2021 5:55 pm

Vast overpayment. How much should they have received then?

I don't think it explictly said lost revenue through the turnstile. I think it was to compensate for lack of spectators. They are quite different.

In reality there were a few clubs who probably should have got a lot more money. York, Chester, Hereford, Dulwich Hamlet, Notts County, Torquay, Chesterfield, Wrexham, Hartlepool specifically.

You are right they weren't the only team. In fact arguably every club received an over payment at the expense of those listed above. I'm basing this on the fact we were at the top end of the second tier and we pretty much got the amount we were told we needed, so maybe we are the exception to the rule above.

They went with a very simplistic model. I think they may have allocated based on whether your average attendance was above or below the average for steps 1 and 2. So strictly speaking it was based on lost revenue from spectators. If you were above the attendance figure in step 1 you got a certain amount, below the attendance figure in step 1 got another amount and the same in step 2.

Perhaps there should have been more 'buckets', perhaps the difference between the buckets should have been greater, perhaps the split between step 1 and step 2 should have been lesser. Perhaps it should have been based on a £1 amount per person (with a divisional multiplier).

We know there were recommendations to change it for a future round of funding which never materialised. We also know that the CEO responsible for the formula fell on his sword.

I don't doubt there were failings, however I strongly doubt any club has actually financially gained from what happened, some just lost more than others. Many of those clubs who were in the top tier would have been able to generate greater commercial and virtual revenues in the absence of spectators as well.
Last edited by lo36789 on Wed Mar 10, 2021 7:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Poolies Feeling The Pinch

Post by dfcdfcdfc » Wed Mar 10, 2021 6:53 pm

Surely this is rubbish. Borehamwood had less than average for their division and we had above average for ours.

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Re: Poolies Feeling The Pinch

Post by lo36789 » Wed Mar 10, 2021 7:16 pm

The line in the sand seemed to be 2,000 average attendance. It may have been as simple as just 2,000 - which would make it even more simplistic.

I haven't worked it out line by line but just looked across averages across all three divisions that looks about right. Turns out it is 2,032 the average attendance at a NL game in 2019/2020, so I wasn't far off.

I edited my message and clearly took out that context and didn't replace it - sorry wasn't meant to come across so definitive - the formula hasn't been published.

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Re: Poolies Feeling The Pinch

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Wed Mar 10, 2021 8:47 pm

I don't think averages are relevant here. And it wouldn't have taken much to work out a figure bespoke to each club.

A very simple calculation could have originally been made that treated all clubs fairly and it would look something like this.

How much money has been given for three months. £11 million
Divide this by the total amount of fans totted up for all 66 clubs for 3 months.
Giving a figure of X for each fan.
Then go to each club. What is their fan attendance figure for 3 months?
Multiply X by this figure giving an amount of money.
Give money to club.

Perhaps a little tweaking to allow for the fact that step one clubs charge more for entry, but the above (or similar) could've been done quickly, so I fail to understand why it was balked up.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

Tamworth matchday programme 26 Nov 2011

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Re: Poolies Feeling The Pinch

Post by lo36789 » Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:10 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 5:55 pm
Perhaps it should have been based on a £1 amount per person (with a divisional multiplier).
See above of course there were alternatives. That doesn't mean that it wasnt based on lost revenue from lack of spectators.

I think those above the line lost our more than those below it actually financially 'gained'. Everyone lost out with the situation ultimately.

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Re: Poolies Feeling The Pinch

Post by dfcdfcdfc » Wed Mar 10, 2021 11:19 pm

Interestingly when what's his name did his report he said that if they had done it by lost spectators then it would have been fairer but more teams would have lost out than gained. Presumably those who gained would have gained big compared to the losses of those losing out.

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Re: Poolies Feeling The Pinch

Post by lo36789 » Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:41 am

dfcdfcdfc wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 11:19 pm
Interestingly when what's his name did his report he said that if they had done it by lost spectators then it would have been fairer but more teams would have lost out than gained. Presumably those who gained would have gained big compared to the losses of those losing out.
It was based on lost spectators. Those who had more spectators lost received more money. It just wasn't pro rata on that basis.

You are going to have to point me to the comments from Bernstein which said that clubs actually financial gained money compared to if they had spectators. I've not seen anything that explicit published.

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Re: Poolies Feeling The Pinch

Post by real_darlo_85 » Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:16 am

Back to the original conversation about Poolies. It may sound nasty but I hope it all comes down over there. I'm normally quite pleased to see any north east sides succeeding and would love a time where we are all doing well at higher levels. However, once they allowed RS to get involved after the way he treated our club 10 years ago I'm afraid I can't accept that.
"The world ain't all sunshine and rainbows. It is a very mean and nasty place and it will beat you to your knees and keep you there permanently if you let it. You, me, or nobody is gonna hit as hard as life. But it ain't how hard you hit; it's about how hard you can get hit, and keep moving forward. How much you can take, and keep moving forward. That's how winning is done!"

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Re: Poolies Feeling The Pinch

Post by lo36789 » Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:10 am

real_darlo_85 wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:16 am
Back to the original conversation about Poolies. It may sound nasty but I hope it all comes down over there. I'm normally quite pleased to see any north east sides succeeding and would love a time where we are all doing well at higher levels. However, once they allowed RS to get involved after the way he treated our club 10 years ago I'm afraid I can't accept that.
Devil's advocate.

Who allowed RS to get involved?

Don't wish bankruptcy on any club, but I would certainly prefer a world where we are in the same division as Hartlepool and out performing them.

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