Potential new local derbies

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jjljks
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Potential new local derbies

Post by jjljks » Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:33 pm

How long will it be before we welcome the likes of Shildon, Stockton & Hebburn? FA have invited them into the newly reorganised National League pyramid

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Re: Potential new local derbies

Post by dfcdfcdfc » Tue Apr 27, 2021 4:25 pm

Will the step up mean they play in the Trophy rather than the Vase?

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Potential new local derbies

Post by Darlogramps » Tue Apr 27, 2021 4:38 pm

dfcdfcdfc wrote:Will the step up mean they play in the Trophy rather than the Vase?
Yes. Step Four and above for the Trophy, Step Five and below for the Vase.

Mike Amos will be self-combusting at the prospect of a triple promotion from the “Back in time for tea” League.
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Re: Potential new local derbies

Post by Darlo_Pete » Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:28 am

I'd imagine Stockton & Hebburn would be keen on getting promotion, as they both seem to be ambitious with a bit of money behind them. Not so sure about Shildon, as there ground would no doubt need a fair bit of money spending on it & I'm not sure they are in a position to make such an investment.

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Re: Potential new local derbies

Post by Old Git » Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:09 am

The quality of teams in the Northern League is fast being eroded. Imagine if in 2012 we had been placed into a league which had not included Spennymoor South Shields Dunston Marske Hebburn and Shildon. We would have had it won by Christmas. Other clubs like Morpeth and Stockton Town were not even in the Northern League Division 1 then and have emerged out of it.
Sad decline for the Northern League it will soon start to be on a par with the old Wearside League but it has come about because of the decision not to be part of the Pyramid years ago. The ambitious teams are now moving on up leaving the less so behind. Hopefully the Northern League will survive but it will not be the force it once was. Those days are long gone.

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Re: Potential new local derbies

Post by Darlo_Pete » Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:05 am

Hopefully sometime in the future, there may be relegation to the Northern League. But whilst there is a shortage of clubs in the leagues above & the prospect of some clubs not surviving the pandemic, this isn't likely to happen anytime soon.

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Re: Potential new local derbies

Post by loan_star » Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:40 am

Old Git wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:09 am
The quality of teams in the Northern League is fast being eroded. Imagine if in 2012 we had been placed into a league which had not included Spennymoor South Shields Dunston Marske Hebburn and Shildon. We would have had it won by Christmas.
Out of them teams there was only really Spenny who were a threat anyway. The rest were never in the hunt and it was before Shields and Hebburn got rich and were playing in front of very small crowds.

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Re: Potential new local derbies

Post by Old Git » Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:49 pm

loan_star wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:40 am
Old Git wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:09 am
The quality of teams in the Northern League is fast being eroded. Imagine if in 2012 we had been placed into a league which had not included Spennymoor South Shields Dunston Marske Hebburn and Shildon. We would have had it won by Christmas.
Out of them teams there was only really Spenny who were a threat anyway. The rest were never in the hunt and it was before Shields and Hebburn got rich and were playing in front of very small crowds.
You are right but my main point is that the quality of the Northern League looks like it is not as strong as it was.
Not an expert on grammar but I think you will find that it would be correct to say out of those teams rather than out of them teams.

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Potential new local derbies

Post by Darlogramps » Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:06 pm

Old Git wrote:The quality of teams in the Northern League is fast being eroded. Imagine if in 2012 we had been placed into a league which had not included Spennymoor South Shields Dunston Marske Hebburn and Shildon. We would have had it won by Christmas. Other clubs like Morpeth and Stockton Town were not even in the Northern League Division 1 then and have emerged out of it.
Sad decline for the Northern League it will soon start to be on a par with the old Wearside League but it has come about because of the decision not to be part of the Pyramid years ago. The ambitious teams are now moving on up leaving the less so behind. Hopefully the Northern League will survive but it will not be the force it once was. Those days are long gone.
I’m not so sure you’re correct about the extent of the decline. I think saying it’ll be on a par with the old Wearside League is a bit OTT.

The Northern League has always managed to cope with sides getting promoted in the last decade.

Of course it’s not going to be as strong with the likes of Spenny, South Shields etc getting promoted. But then these were ambitious clubs who weren’t going to hang about. And actually in due course, some of the sides who go up will come back down.

However there are always clubs who take the promoted sides’ place. Look at the delayed FA Vase final on Monday. That’s between Consett and Hebburn, an all-Northern League final so it’s clearly still a strong division, comparatively. Granted Hebburn are going up next season.

But every time a club comes up, there’s always another ambitious club who comes through. It was only six or seven years ago, Stockton were a Wearside League side. They came through and were as competitive as say a Dunston or a Morpeth who’d previously gone up.

It should also be pointed out the Northern League when we were in it was ridiculous in terms of quality. The money being thrown around, combined with years of clubs refusing to take promotion (usually Spenny). So it’s coming from a very high position, and the Northern League from 2010 to 2015 was an outlier in terms of strength.

I guess the point I’m making is it’s always an ongoing process with teams rising and fading. So I think the Northern League is doing just fine in terms of strength and quality. Next week’s final supports that.

I think it’s more a case of it levelling off a bit after a silly decade or so where club refused to go up, egged on by Mike “You’ll Never Leave” Amos.
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Re: Potential new local derbies

Post by jjljks » Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:44 pm

Real competition promotes good football which then generates interests & crowds. Just for once a 'win-win' situation and I hope the fans of these 3 clubs enjoy the struggle to progress up the league.

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Re: Potential new local derbies

Post by EDJOHNS » Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:02 am

I have to say I do not get all this animosity to the "Home by tea" league from some. While 1 or 2 clubs were a bit shitty, (Waste and Norton etc), most were welcoming, and the league were not forced to put us in their top league so they could have made things worse had they felt inclined. Don't set off on the "they could not cope" argument. We have all heard it before and as most clubs in the 2 leagues swap over from time to time I see no reason why others would have coped less well than those that we went to.
I still travel, (Covid allowing), every week to watch KR in the rugby league, and I have to say the travel was starting to get to me and I have been quite happy to watch on the RL ap,(while still paying for my seats), so it has had me thinking about the "Home by tea" league, and I quite see why clubs should want a decent level of football while not being keen on traveling the length of the country and back.
While I get that the leagues refusal to join the pyramid for years made the country rather "lopsided" and gave clubs like Darlo more traveling than other areas had I see that more the fault of the FA for not making sure they had leagues in the pyramid that covered the area rather than blaming a league who did not want to take part. Had the FA set up a league, (NPL East and West?) and "invited" clubs to join, those who did want to progress could have done while those who wanted to stay local could also have done that.
What on earth did they do wrong that still causes so much angst?

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Re: Potential new local derbies

Post by lo36789 » Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:51 am

It wasn't the league who didn't want to take part was it?

Clubs were eligible for promotion they just chose not to take it so it was the clubs rather than the league.

It was encouraged somewhat by Amos who seemed to praise this stance by the clubs and wanted the NL to be a ceiling. It was more his holier than thou blog that rubbed people up the wrong way.

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Re: Potential new local derbies

Post by EDJOHNS » Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:05 am

lo36789 wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:51 am
It wasn't the league who didn't want to take part was it?

Clubs were eligible for promotion they just chose not to take it so it was the clubs rather than the league.

It was encouraged somewhat by Amos who seemed to praise this stance by the clubs and wanted the NL to be a ceiling. It was more his holier than thou blog that rubbed people up the wrong way.
[/quo

Not so. When the leagues were reformed previously the Northern league were offered a place on the same level as the NPL but declined to join the pyramid. Instead of splitting the NPL into halves that covered the whole of the North they left it as it was, thus virtually all North Western clubs.
By the way, that was long before Amos took over running the NL, which I think was about 1996.
The irony, when they did eventually join the pyramid they were somewhat put out as they expected the same offer to be on the table, ie the same level as the NPL, but had to settle for in effect 2 levels below as they were placed below the NPL/N.
A few clubs, Bish and Durham come to mind, did try to join the pyramid, but fell back because of the financial problems with all the travel.

From Wiki,
.
The Northern League and Isthmian League (with its feeder leagues) continued to claim amateur status right up until, following pressure, amateur status was abandoned by the Football Association in 1974. This left amateur leagues like the Northern to find a place in the overall structure of non-League football. Unlike its southern equivalent the Isthmian League who became a feeder to the Alliance Premier League in 1982, the Northern League rejected repeated invitations. Ultimately, the Northern League remained out of the football pyramid until 1991. The league declined throughout the 1980s as its leading clubs defected to other leagues within the football pyramid, such as the Northern Counties East Football League. When the Northern League finally joined the pyramid, it was as a feeder league to the lower division of the Northern Premier League (Level 9).

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Potential new local derbies

Post by Darlogramps » Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:25 pm

EDJOHNS wrote:I have to say I do not get all this animosity to the "Home by tea" league from some. While 1 or 2 clubs were a bit shitty, (Waste and Norton etc), most were welcoming, and the league were not forced to put us in their top league so they could have made things worse had they felt inclined. Don't set off on the "they could not cope" argument. We have all heard it before and as most clubs in the 2 leagues swap over from time to time I see no reason why others would have coped less well than those that we went to.
I still travel, (Covid allowing), every week to watch KR in the rugby league, and I have to say the travel was starting to get to me and I have been quite happy to watch on the RL ap,(while still paying for my seats), so it has had me thinking about the "Home by tea" league, and I quite see why clubs should want a decent level of football while not being keen on traveling the length of the country and back.
While I get that the leagues refusal to join the pyramid for years made the country rather "lopsided" and gave clubs like Darlo more traveling than other areas had I see that more the fault of the FA for not making sure they had leagues in the pyramid that covered the area rather than blaming a league who did not want to take part. Had the FA set up a league, (NPL East and West?) and "invited" clubs to join, those who did want to progress could have done while those who wanted to stay local could also have done that.
What on earth did they do wrong that still causes so much angst?
I think there’s a number of factors to be honest.

Amos was pretty clear he would rather we hadn’t been his problem. I could be wrong, but I’m sure he even said something to that effect. He called Darlington fans “paranoid” at one point, which isn’t exactly the action of a neutral league chairman.

What irritated me was, because it was clear we wanted promotion, a pretty vocal section of the Northern League clubs and fanbase s, including some of the dyed-in-the-wool committee men, took that as a personal attack on the league.

“Oh you want promotion, do you? How disrespectful to our wonderful league!” It was pretty clear some saw our ambition as some sort of slight against them.

And from then on, a lot just tried to find any reason to get offended by us. I remember there was uproar after a midweek game at Guisborough because we went straight home after the match, rather than staying for sandwiches. It was that petty.

For me anyway, that’s where the “Home In Time For Tea” stuff comes from. There was a sizeable minority who sneered at the prospect of an ambitious club wanting to move up, and fell over themselves to be offended by us.

To me, Amos and his cronies have always been anti-promotion. Just read his pompous blog and that’s pretty clear. They’d rather the Northern League was like an old Working Men’s Club, were everyone slaps each other on the back about how good they all are, and get a day out at Wembley each year.

It’s also basic logic that, in that decade where only one or two clubs went up, if a club had gone up every year, that’s eight to ten more clubs higher up the pyramid. That cuts travelling costs as you have more North East clubs in the higher divisions. Indeed that’s what we’re seeing right now.

Plus as you said, the Northern League had the chance to establish clubs higher up the league but declined. Under Amos, it was a division convinced of its own superiority and self-importance. Less so now as it’s rejoined the real world.

So it was a problem of the league’s own making.
Last edited by Darlogramps on Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Potential new local derbies

Post by EDJOHNS » Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:37 pm

Darlogramps wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:25 pm
EDJOHNS wrote:I have to say I do not get all this animosity to the "Home by tea" league from some. While 1 or 2 clubs were a bit shitty, (Waste and Norton etc), most were welcoming, and the league were not forced to put us in their top league so they could have made things worse had they felt inclined. Don't set off on the "they could not cope" argument. We have all heard it before and as most clubs in the 2 leagues swap over from time to time I see no reason why others would have coped less well than those that we went to.
I still travel, (Covid allowing), every week to watch KR in the rugby league, and I have to say the travel was starting to get to me and I have been quite happy to watch on the RL ap,(while still paying for my seats), so it has had me thinking about the "Home by tea" league, and I quite see why clubs should want a decent level of football while not being keen on traveling the length of the country and back.
While I get that the leagues refusal to join the pyramid for years made the country rather "lopsided" and gave clubs like Darlo more traveling than other areas had I see that more the fault of the FA for not making sure they had leagues in the pyramid that covered the area rather than blaming a league who did not want to take part. Had the FA set up a league, (NPL East and West?) and "invited" clubs to join, those who did want to progress could have done while those who wanted to stay local could also have done that.
What on earth did they do wrong that still causes so much angst?
I think there’s a number of factors to be honest.

Amos was pretty clear he would rather we hadn’t been his problem. I could be wrong, but I’m sure he even said something to that effect. He called Darlington fans “paranoid” at one point, which isn’t exactly the action of a neutral league chairman.

What irritated me was, because it was clear we wanted promotion, a pretty vocal section of the Northern League clubs and fanbase s, including some of the dyed-in-the-wool committee men, took that as a personal attack on the league.

“Oh you want promotion, do you? How disrespectful to our wonderful league!” It was pretty clear some saw wanting to go up as some sort of slight.

And from then on, a lot just tried to find any reason to get offended by us. I remember there was uproar after a midweek game at Guisborough because we went straight home after the match, rather than staying for sandwiches. It was that petty.

For me anyway, that’s where the “Home In Time For Tea” stuff comes from. There was a sizeable minority who sneered at the prospect of an ambitious club wanting to move up, and fell over themselves to be offended by us.

To me, Amos and his cronies have always been anti-promotion. Just read his pompous blog and that’s pretty clear. They’d rather the Northern League was like an old Working Men’s Club, were everyone slaps each other on the back about how good they all are, and get a day out at Wembley each year.

It’s also basic logic that, in that decade where only one or two clubs went up, if a club had gone up every year, that’s eight to ten more clubs higher up the pyramid. That cuts travelling costs as you have more North East clubs in the higher divisions. Indeed that’s what we’re seeing right now.

Plus as you said, the Northern League had the chance to establish clubs higher up the league but declined. Under Amos, it was a division convinced of its own superiority and self-importance. Less so now as it’s rejoined the real world.

So it was a problem of the league’s own making.
I did not go to all games that season, but I do/did quite a bit of ground hopping round the NL from about 1990 when I moved back North thus have got to know a few people round the league. Yes I heard 1 or 2 silly comments but by far most thought we were hard done by and wished us luck.
Sorry but I personally never got any real animosity either then or since.
Amos is a pompous/blackmailing/nasty prat who, though I only heard it recently, always thought he would be a good fit with GR. I will defend him in no way, other than as I have already said, he personally was not involved when the NL refused to join the pyramid. A lot of people think it was all him. They are clearly wrong.
That said Gramps, at the time the pyramid was formed as it was in the 80's, clubs had the option to move leagues. I have something in the back of my mind that about 3 joined the NCEL and 1 or 2 max joined another league. Personally as I said I now get why other clubs decided to stay put and get home without hours driving. To my way of thinking, and I am sorry to repeat, but surely the ones to blame were the FA who were in control.
If they accepted that the NL were required as part of the pyramid to level things up, why, when they refused to join did they not form a new league in the area to take up the burden of clubs wanting to progress? Surely that would have been the common sense thing to do?
"Common sense"? Yea, OK.
Sorry but I simply don't understand people keeping up petty name calling for 9 years. Surely, if this last year has taught us anything, it should be what is important and worth worrying about. That was really my sole reason for commenting

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Re: Potential new local derbies

Post by lo36789 » Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:44 pm

I don't think the home in time for tea relates to actions pre 1991.

It is very much around behaviours which were seen post 2012.

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Re: Potential new local derbies

Post by EDJOHNS » Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:42 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:44 pm
I don't think the home in time for tea relates to actions pre 1991.

It is very much around behaviours which were seen post 2012.
Note my last paragraph!
As we only spent 1 season in the NL is it really worth worrying about anything that was said outside that season, and apart from Waste and Norton, was anything really so bad it deserves to be still festering 8 years later.
Some people have thin skins.

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Potential new local derbies

Post by Darlogramps » Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:19 pm

EDJOHNS wrote:
lo36789 wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:44 pm
I don't think the home in time for tea relates to actions pre 1991.

It is very much around behaviours which were seen post 2012.
Note my last paragraph!
As we only spent 1 season in the NL is it really worth worrying about anything that was said outside that season, and apart from Waste and Norton, was anything really so bad it deserves to be still festering 8 years later.
Some people have thin skins.
I wouldn’t say it particularly bothers me, or any other Darlo fan to be honest.

As you say, it was eight years ago. Doesn’t mean I don’t enjoy poking fun at Amos and his cronies every now and then.

Think you’re reading a bit too much into it all.
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Re: Potential new local derbies

Post by EDJOHNS » Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:32 pm

Darlogramps wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:19 pm
EDJOHNS wrote:
lo36789 wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:44 pm
I don't think the home in time for tea relates to actions pre 1991.

It is very much around behaviours which were seen post 2012.
Note my last paragraph!
As we only spent 1 season in the NL is it really worth worrying about anything that was said outside that season, and apart from Waste and Norton, was anything really so bad it deserves to be still festering 8 years later.
Some people have thin skins.
I wouldn’t say it particularly bothers me, or any other Darlo fan to be honest.

As you say, it was eight years ago. Doesn’t mean I don’t enjoy poking fun at Amos and his cronies every now and then.

Think you’re reading a bit too much into it all.
Maybe. Just seems a tad sad that people are still being sarcastic about what is a very old and respected league.

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Re: Potential new local derbies

Post by biccynana » Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:42 pm

Old Git wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:49 pm
loan_star wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:40 am
Old Git wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:09 am
The quality of teams in the Northern League is fast being eroded. Imagine if in 2012 we had been placed into a league which had not included Spennymoor South Shields Dunston Marske Hebburn and Shildon. We would have had it won by Christmas.
Out of them teams there was only really Spenny who were a threat anyway. The rest were never in the hunt and it was before Shields and Hebburn got rich and were playing in front of very small crowds.

Not an expert on grammar but I think you will find that it would be correct to say out of those teams rather than out of them teams.
Clearly, or you'd have used a few commas in your original post ;)

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Re: Potential new local derbies

Post by rogerkay » Sat May 01, 2021 6:00 pm

I'd imagine Stockton & Hebburn would be keen on getting promotion, as they both seem to be ambitious with a bit of money behind them.


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Re: Potential new local derbies

Post by shildonlad » Mon May 03, 2021 5:42 pm

EDJOHNS wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:42 pm
lo36789 wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:44 pm
I don't think the home in time for tea relates to actions pre 1991.

It is very much around behaviours which were seen post 2012.
Note my last paragraph!
As we only spent 1 season in the NL is it really worth worrying about anything that was said outside that season, and apart from Waste and Norton, was anything really so bad it deserves to be still festering 8 years later.
Some people have thin skins.
I know west auckland hiked the admisson, what did norton do?
I may not live in the north east anymore but i still support the north east teams

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Re: Potential new local derbies

Post by Old Git » Mon May 03, 2021 5:46 pm

shildonlad wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 5:42 pm
EDJOHNS wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:42 pm
lo36789 wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:44 pm
I don't think the home in time for tea relates to actions pre 1991.

It is very much around behaviours which were seen post 2012.
Note my last paragraph!
As we only spent 1 season in the NL is it really worth worrying about anything that was said outside that season, and apart from Waste and Norton, was anything really so bad it deserves to be still festering 8 years later.
Some people have thin skins.
I know west auckland hiked the admisson, what did norton do?
The same but they were crafty enough not to announce it in advance but just sprung it on us at the turnstiles

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Re: Potential new local derbies

Post by EDJOHNS » Mon May 03, 2021 6:01 pm

Old Git wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 5:46 pm
shildonlad wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 5:42 pm
EDJOHNS wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:42 pm
lo36789 wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:44 pm
I don't think the home in time for tea relates to actions pre 1991.

It is very much around behaviours which were seen post 2012.
Note my last paragraph!
As we only spent 1 season in the NL is it really worth worrying about anything that was said outside that season, and apart from Waste and Norton, was anything really so bad it deserves to be still festering 8 years later.
Some people have thin skins.
I know west auckland hiked the admisson, what did norton do?
The same but they were crafty enough not to announce it in advance but just sprung it on us at the turnstiles
To be "fare" Norton did only hike it by 2 quid, not double it as Waste did.

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Re: Potential new local derbies

Post by shildonlad » Mon May 03, 2021 6:08 pm

Theres a few myths about the northern league in terms of promotion;
-travel: the north east is not that isolated especially with road improvements. As darlogramps said no teams barely went up so thats why there was alot of travelling with trips as far south as derby at one time at step 4.
-the fa aint really got it in for the league. Mass promotions were offered in the late 80s and also the late 00’s due to restructuring and there were few takers which did not ease the travel issues. At the time the fa could not force clubs to go up and mike amos often talked about a tweed to a humber league been formed. Thats what the footprint would have been had more taken promotion in the past and will cover that area soon the way things are going. What did he want, the fa to pay clubs travel
expenses.
-long trips midweek: the long trips were generally on weekends unless bad weather posponed them. Due to step 4 been 20 teams now the long trips midweek wont be often.
-the league been decimated is a myth in the long term anyway. Always clubs at wearside league level want to step up. Theres been no relegations back to the northern league due to lack of clubs higher up in the past. Also promoted clubs have been strong at nl level for a while. Due to enforced promotion some teams bound to win the league on a whim and go straight back down
I may not live in the north east anymore but i still support the north east teams

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Re: Potential new local derbies

Post by shildonlad » Mon May 03, 2021 6:11 pm

Old Git wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 5:46 pm
shildonlad wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 5:42 pm
EDJOHNS wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:42 pm
lo36789 wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:44 pm
I don't think the home in time for tea relates to actions pre 1991.

It is very much around behaviours which were seen post 2012.
Note my last paragraph!
As we only spent 1 season in the NL is it really worth worrying about anything that was said outside that season, and apart from Waste and Norton, was anything really so bad it deserves to be still festering 8 years later.
Some people have thin skins.
I know west auckland hiked the admisson, what did norton do?
The same but they were crafty enough not to announce it in advance but just sprung it on us at the turnstiles
Thats bad. Most were happy enough with extra revenue without been greedy. Mind we’re talking about a club whos chairman folded them despite them been a top half northern league team
I may not live in the north east anymore but i still support the north east teams

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