6 players leave

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Darlofan97
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Re: 6 players leave

Post by Darlofan97 » Fri May 14, 2021 6:59 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 6:23 pm
What are people after?

We can't announce something which hasn't yet happened?
I'd have liked the club to have been clearer on the 6 players that left (i.e. which ones had been offered contracts, or which ones were released).

I'd have liked to club to have actually provided an article on the departing players, instead of leaving them at the footnote of a contract extension piece.

I'd have liked to club to actually specify that club captain Hatfield was contracted for this season, as no official communication has actually confirmed what length contract he signed or that he has been retained.

I'd have liked the club to actually confirm which players have been offered deals for next season (still question marks over McMahon, Storey, Holness, Hudson & Sousa).

All of this is actually pretty basic, non-intrusive and harmless stuff, yet it would help with BtB engagement. Communication is key.

I say the club and, to be fair, I don't think it's actually a club decision to be so vague.

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Re: 6 players leave

Post by Darlofan97 » Fri May 14, 2021 7:02 pm

Old Git wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 6:43 pm
lo36789 wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 6:23 pm
What are people after?

We can't announce something which hasn't yet happened?
Exactly 3 months to go to the start of the season and some people seem to be getting a bit anxious already. We all want to be updated and crave information but fans need to put their trust in AA and DJ and allow them to do their jobs. I am sure they will be working hard behind the scenes and when there is something to announce we will be informed.
Nobody is after information that hasn't been signed, sealed & delivered.

The issue is that key bits of information are being missed out of articles, or slipped in at the end of another article.

If it was communicated properly, it would reduce the speculation and increase engagement levels with BtB. It's a fairly basic concept.

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Re: 6 players leave

Post by Ghost_Of_1883 » Fri May 14, 2021 7:31 pm

Darlofan97 wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 7:02 pm

Nobody is after information that hasn't been signed, sealed & delivered.

The issue is that key bits of information are being missed out of articles, or slipped in at the end of another article.

If it was communicated properly, it would reduce the speculation and increase engagement levels with BtB. It's a fairly basic concept.
Spot on, as per usual.
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Re: 6 players leave

Post by jjljks » Sat May 15, 2021 5:44 am

This drip feed of information is just a cunning ruse to keep the fanbase engaged, like the cliff-hanger endings that are used by soaps.
Keep the faith with AA & DJ. We will have a decent squad to start the season, just hope we can get in to see them and the lads put on some attractive football so teams fear coming to Blackwell Meadows :thumbup:

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Re: 6 players leave

Post by lo36789 » Sat May 15, 2021 7:46 am

Darlofan97 wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 6:59 pm
I'd have liked the club to have been clearer on the 6 players that left (i.e. which ones had been offered contracts, or which ones were released).

I'd have liked to club to have actually provided an article on the departing players, instead of leaving them at the footnote of a contract extension piece.
Fair enough. Guess they are working out what actually warrants a story. I think there is more to it than just regurgitation of information mind think we maximise our approach to maximise revenues from clicks / engagement.

I am not sure about releasing articles about the minutia of an individual players decision or ours as a) doesn't change the outcome b) not sure these things are always that clear cut. They start with informal and potentially confidential chats between manager and player before anything is formally offered or otherwise.
Darlofan97 wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 6:59 pm
I'd have liked the club to actually confirm which players have been offered deals for next season (still question marks over McMahon, Storey, Holness, Hudson & Sousa).
I feel this might be deliberate again. It is better to post stories daily than weekly from a marketing / engagement perspective.

I can see the greater concern for us as it affects BtB maybe more than other clubs, so if it is damaging that then it needs to be looked at. If however a daily update followed by a BtB post is actually driving more donations...I don't have access to the click data...but assume those who do are doing things for a reason.

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Re: 6 players leave

Post by Ghost_Of_1883 » Sat May 15, 2021 7:58 am

jjljks wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 5:44 am
This drip feed of information is just a cunning ruse to keep the fanbase engaged
It's alienating the fan base.

As darlofan97 has already said, we must be the only club who doesn't do an end of season statement telling us who is released, who is under contract, who is out of contract and offered a new one.

Sousa for example? For me he is a key player. Is he in contract? Out of contract and offered one? No one knows, but I bet plenty care. The club is taking us for granted now, IMO.

The lack of basics makes me feel like the club is imploding, even though I know it's not.

One thing I'm not bothered about, is how the departures of Maguire, Campbell et all were announced. We didn't need any big fan fare, or fawning. They chose to go to Blyth and Gateshead. If they'd rather play there instead of our famous old club, then fuck them. Only Campbell is some sort of loss.
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Re: 6 players leave

Post by don'tbuythesun » Sat May 15, 2021 8:24 am

As always there are varying opinions about the way information is shared. I'm not particularly bothered whether it's a statement or a drip feed of who's left/staying/deciding/arriving. One plus for me is shorter contracts as some players have been a let down in the past. On the negative side that allows decent players to leave although apart from Campbell I'm not overly concerned. If fans are unhappy why not contact "the" club. Surely being fan owned means just that and your opinion should be considered? Every time I've made contact I've had a helpful response.

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Re: 6 players leave

Post by Darlofan97 » Sat May 15, 2021 9:02 am

lo36789 wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 7:46 am
Darlofan97 wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 6:59 pm
I'd have liked the club to have been clearer on the 6 players that left (i.e. which ones had been offered contracts, or which ones were released).

I'd have liked to club to have actually provided an article on the departing players, instead of leaving them at the footnote of a contract extension piece.
Fair enough. Guess they are working out what actually warrants a story. I think there is more to it than just regurgitation of information mind think we maximise our approach to maximise revenues from clicks / engagement.

I am not sure about releasing articles about the minutia of an individual players decision or ours as a) doesn't change the outcome b) not sure these things are always that clear cut. They start with informal and potentially confidential chats between manager and player before anything is formally offered or otherwise.
Darlofan97 wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 6:59 pm
I'd have liked the club to actually confirm which players have been offered deals for next season (still question marks over McMahon, Storey, Holness, Hudson & Sousa).
I feel this might be deliberate again. It is better to post stories daily than weekly from a marketing / engagement perspective.

I can see the greater concern for us as it affects BtB maybe more than other clubs, so if it is damaging that then it needs to be looked at. If however a daily update followed by a BtB post is actually driving more donations...I don't have access to the click data...but assume those who do are doing things for a reason.
Lo, have a look at the website and see what articles are being written. Judge for yourself if these are "more newsworthy" than player news.

There have been 9 new articles added alone since Jarrett Rivers signed his new contract on Wednesday.

In regards to confirming which players have been offered contracts for next season, it would have been good of the club to confirm this. It's harmless, but engages fans and keeps them informed. As Ghost is saying, there has been no news on our best player (Sousa), not to mention McMahon, Storey, Holness & Hudson.

Once again, I am not asking for granular information. I don't need to know the reasons for the departures, player pay rises, potential new signings etc, but very basic, non-confidential and non-intrusive information is being missed, and that is frustrating when the fans contribute about 33% of the playing budget every year. 95% of other clubs at our level get this basic concept and engagement right, yet we aren't.

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Re: 6 players leave

Post by lo36789 » Sat May 15, 2021 9:33 am

I imagine it is being done for a reason...that is all. People can argue the toss over what they would prefer. I doubt the club is wanting to diminish the returns on BtB though, they will be doing everything possible to maximise them, based on data, based on evidence of what works.

I do think the detail of whether we did or did not offer an extension is quite a personal matter for a player, basically announces to the world whether they were wanted or not.

The reality is we probably didn't offer any of the players who left anything.

They likely told Armstrong that for x, y and z reason they would be moving elsewhere so wouldnt extend if an extension was offered. Had they not said that upfront we might have offered an extension but it became n/a. So what is our official statement "we did not offer the players an extension"...it's not false, but also is it particularly informative?

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Re: 6 players leave

Post by Darlofan97 » Sat May 15, 2021 9:51 am

lo36789 wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 9:33 am
I imagine it is being done for a reason...that is all. People can argue the toss over what they would prefer. I doubt the club is wanting to diminish the returns on BtB though, they will be doing everything possible to maximise them, based on data, based on evidence of what works.

I do think the detail of whether we did or did not offer an extension is quite a personal matter for a player, basically announces to the world whether they were wanted or not.

The reality is we probably didn't offer any of the players who left anything.

They likely told Armstrong that for x, y and z reason they would be moving elsewhere so wouldnt extend if an extension was offered. Had they not said that upfront we might have offered an extension but it became n/a. So what is our official statement "we did not offer the players an extension"...it's not false, but also is it particularly informative?
"I imagine it is being done for a reason" isn't sound business logic when you have a bunch of fans disengaged.

By that principle, nothing would ever improve, things would stay the same as the status-quo would be "done for a reason".

We will have offered some of those departed players a contract, and informing the fans of that would have made us feel more engaged. It wouldn't have changed the outcome, of course not, but it would have helped us feel a little less in the dark.

By the same principle, informing the fans that McMahon, Storey & Sousa have been offered new deals would also increase engagement levels. Again, it wouldn't change the outcome, but it would keep fans a little more informed.

By the same principle, announcing that our non-contracted players Holness and Hudson have departed instead of fans second guessing, would also help fans feel more engaged.

By also the same principle, the club announcing that club captain Will Hatfield is retained for this season would also have helped, instead of the second guessing of "did he sign for two years last season, or did he not".

And again, chucking player departure news at the footnote of a separate article also does not help.

These may sound like minor things, but they do have a culminative impact on engagement and that is critical when trying to raise £120k via BtB.

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Re: 6 players leave

Post by Ghost_Of_1883 » Sat May 15, 2021 10:08 am

lo36789 wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 9:33 am
I imagine it is being done for a reason...that is all. People can argue the toss over what they would prefer. I doubt the club is wanting to diminish the returns on BtB though, they will be doing everything possible to maximise them, based on data, based on evidence of what works.

I do think the detail of whether we did or did not offer an extension is quite a personal matter for a player, basically announces to the world whether they were wanted or not.

The reality is we probably didn't offer any of the players who left anything.

They likely told Armstrong that for x, y and z reason they would be moving elsewhere so wouldnt extend if an extension was offered. Had they not said that upfront we might have offered an extension but it became n/a. So what is our official statement "we did not offer the players an extension"...it's not false, but also is it particularly informative?
God, you're absolutely top quality at consistently missing the point aren't you? No one has asked for the club to reveal if the club offered the departed players an extension because no one cares. It's just not relevant any more.

But what is relevant is this - is Sousa under contract or not? This is basic.

But the club doesn't see fit to tell us this very basic information yet is asking for £120,000+. To me this is a one way relationship. What happens in one way relationships is one partner usually gets tired and dumps the other partner. We don't want prospective donors dumping the club, especially given that some people have naturally lost interest because of the way the last 15 months have gone.

We're perhaps not surprisingly behind last years total mid month due to covid fatigue anyway, so I just can't see us getting near 131k or the 120k target this time, especially if others think "nah I will leave it this year because I'm being taken for granted"
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Re: 6 players leave

Post by lo36789 » Sat May 15, 2021 10:09 am

Darlofan97 wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 9:51 am
"I imagine it is being done for a reason" isn't sound business logic when you have a bunch of fans disengaged.
...
These may sound like minor things, but they do have a culminative impact on engagement and that is critical when trying to raise £120k via BtB.
Hold on a minute...

My assumption that there is a reason isn't what I believe the club are basing it on, that is a bit circular.

I am saying that I believe the club have crunched the data on previous years BtB, possibly identified that the surges in donations come as and when player news is announced.

By that token rather than bunching up all the player news in one article they are instead drip feeding, therefore maximising the surges in donations to Btb.

I don't have access to the data, I don't see the click rate on articles, I don't see the trend of donations which correspond.

My assumption is that is the sound business reason for doing it in the manner that they have. It might be flawed, it might not be the right answer, but I can't see that there is a deliberate attempt to limit the return from BtB.

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Re: 6 players leave

Post by Ghost_Of_1883 » Sat May 15, 2021 10:16 am

lo36789 wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 10:09 am
My assumption is that is the sound business reason for doing it in the manner that they have. It might be flawed, it might not be the right answer, but I can't see that there is a deliberate attempt to limit the return from BtB.
Of course there is no deliberate attempt to limit the return from the BTB.

The club will have a good idea what sort of figures to expect from BTB from the surveys they sent out. Maybe they got comforting answers back, so have got their pipe and slippers out.
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Re: 6 players leave

Post by Darlofan97 » Sat May 15, 2021 10:18 am

lo36789 wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 10:09 am
Darlofan97 wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 9:51 am
"I imagine it is being done for a reason" isn't sound business logic when you have a bunch of fans disengaged.
...
These may sound like minor things, but they do have a culminative impact on engagement and that is critical when trying to raise £120k via BtB.
Hold on a minute...

My assumption that there is a reason isn't what I believe the club are basing it on, that is a bit circular.

I am saying that I believe the club have crunched the data on previous years BtB, possibly identified that the surges in donations come as and when player news is announced.

By that token rather than bunching up all the player news in one article they are instead drip feeding, therefore maximising the surges in donations to Btb.

I don't have access to the data, I don't see the click rate on articles, I don't see the trend of donations which correspond.

My assumption is that is the sound business reason for doing it in the manner that they have. It might be flawed, it might not be the right answer, but I can't see that there is a deliberate attempt to limit the return from BtB.
Lo, I don't have a problem with contract renewals and signings being drip-fed over May. This is a good tactic to maintain levels of engagement with BtB throughout the month.

What I am saying, is when this information is being released, it is lacking substance and basic information, or hidden at the bottom of another article. The length of Hatfield's contract was not disclosed (it hasn't been confirmed if he has been retained, despite an interview with him on the website!), we weren't told which of the departing players were offered new deals (which would have been nice to have known), we haven't been told if McMahon, Storey, Sousa, Holness & Hudson have been offered new deals (let alone accepting them) or if they're under contract themselves and you can still write an article on the departing players without dropping them as a foot-note in a separate article.

You can still drip-feed information throughout the month to maintain levels of engagement, but be clear and concise with your communication when it is released at the same time. You're confusing them both as the same thing.

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Re: 6 players leave

Post by lo36789 » Sat May 15, 2021 10:26 am

I guess we will know if McMahon, Storey, Sousa, Holness and Hudson are staying once it has been agreed if they are staying or not, or once it is time to release it...

I guess people are different.

I am not sure if I feel I need to know if they have been offered an extension...I only care if they sign one or not.

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Re: 6 players leave

Post by Old Git » Sat May 15, 2021 10:27 am

God some of you are getting very anal about this. Maybe Uncle Ray is having a little break or is busy doing other things at present. Like all our people he is a volunteer doing his work for the club alongside everything else he has to do. If you have specific questions ask the club directly and express your concerns to them if you feel so strongly. Better still if you think you can do a better job volunteer your services as some of you seem to have time on your hands.
Please don’t anyone reply along the lines of we are a fan owned club so have a right to know.

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Re: 6 players leave

Post by Ghost_Of_1883 » Sat May 15, 2021 10:37 am

I heard he is in a paid role (Ray that is) - so if that's true, can you drop the "he's just a volunteer" line.
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Re: 6 players leave

Post by Darlofan97 » Sat May 15, 2021 10:53 am

lo36789 wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 10:26 am
I guess we will know if McMahon, Storey, Sousa, Holness and Hudson are staying once it has been agreed if they are staying or not, or once it is time to release it...

I guess people are different.

I am not sure if I feel I need to know if they have been offered an extension...I only care if they sign one or not.
A simple, "Tony McMahon, Alex Storey & Erico Sousa have been offered new terms for 21/22 and an announcement will be made on these players in due course" is better than saying nothing. Then you can drip feed the extensions (if they sign).

So is, "alongside Nicky Hunt & Johnny Saltmer, non-contract players Omar Holness & Theo Hudson will not be returning for the 21/22 season".

Or: "Club Captain Will Hatfield is contracted for the 21/22 season, having signed a two-year deal last Summer."

This is what clubs down up and down the land do each summer.

Simple, but effective, engagement when attempting to achieve the highest BtB target to date.

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Re: 6 players leave

Post by Ghost_Of_1883 » Sat May 15, 2021 11:01 am

Exactly that.
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Re: 6 players leave

Post by lo36789 » Sat May 15, 2021 11:09 am

Darlofan97 wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 10:53 am
Simple, but effective, engagement when attempting to achieve the highest BtB target to date.
If you think it has that impact. I don't care either way as I said above, we won't be lining up in August not knowing who plays for us.

I go back to my actual point. I assume it is being done this way for a reason.

I don't have data or evidence behind it, but neither do you to suggest what you have said above would have a net positive or negative impact on BtB, especially against the approach being taken will.

I assume response has been AB tested over the years we have been doing BtB.

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Re: 6 players leave

Post by Ghost_Of_1883 » Sat May 15, 2021 11:21 am

This is how you do it Ray.

https://www.harrogatetownafc.com/news-m ... t-2020-21/

Clear, concise, everyone knows the situation after reading it.

It should be easy to do this if you have the information, nearly every important club does this or something similar.
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Re: 6 players leave

Post by Darlofan97 » Sat May 15, 2021 11:23 am

lo36789 wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 11:09 am
Darlofan97 wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 10:53 am
Simple, but effective, engagement when attempting to achieve the highest BtB target to date.
If you think it has that impact. I don't care either way as I said above, we won't be lining up in August not knowing who plays for us.

I go back to my actual point. I assume it is being done this way for a reason.

I don't have data or evidence behind it, but neither do you to suggest what you have said above would have a net positive or negative impact on BtB, especially against the approach being taken will.

I assume response has been AB tested over the years we have been doing BtB.
BtB is significantly lower than what it was at this stage last season.

I could also point towards qualitative data which proves fans aren't happy with the current approach.

Whilst 100% of the BtB shortfall is not down to the poor levels of engagement this summer, there is a strong chance that some of it will be.

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Re: 6 players leave

Post by don'tbuythesun » Sat May 15, 2021 12:38 pm

It's fine voicing your concerns and opinions on here but as I suggested why not email "the" club?

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Re: 6 players leave

Post by Ghost_Of_1883 » Sat May 15, 2021 1:07 pm

don'tbuythesun wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 12:38 pm
It's fine voicing your concerns and opinions on here but as I suggested why not email "the" club?
Because it's fine voicing concerns and opinions on here. You even just said that yourself.
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Re: 6 players leave

Post by Old Git » Sat May 15, 2021 1:15 pm

Darlofan97 wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 11:23 am
lo36789 wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 11:09 am
Darlofan97 wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 10:53 am
Simple, but effective, engagement when attempting to achieve the highest BtB target to date.
If you think it has that impact. I don't care either way as I said above, we won't be lining up in August not knowing who plays for us.

I go back to my actual point. I assume it is being done this way for a reason.

I don't have data or evidence behind it, but neither do you to suggest what you have said above would have a net positive or negative impact on BtB, especially against the approach being taken will.

I assume response has been AB tested over the years we have been doing BtB.
BtB is significantly lower than what it was at this stage last season.

I could also point towards qualitative data which proves fans aren't happy with the current approach.

Whilst 100% of the BtB shortfall is not down to the poor levels of engagement this summer, there is a strong chance that some of it will be.
By my reckoning we are on day 16 of 32 for BTB and the total is just over £65,000. So bang on halfway to last year’s total in half the time. We may well have been on a higher figure at this stage last season I have no idea but what I do recall is that momentum built up dramatically in the final few days. I agree that information about players retained or signings would be interesting to know but I doubt it is making a massive difference at this stage.
Remember if some of the departures were unexpected it will have meant that AA will have had to change his plans and maybe chasing players he did not expect to need. It may have also altered his thinking about some of the players already on the books so things may not have panned out as expected.
As my gran used to say “ Patience is a virtue “

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Re: 6 players leave

Post by lo36789 » Sat May 15, 2021 1:25 pm

Proof will be in the end result I guess. I doubt anything that is being done is through naivity or without good reason.

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6 players leave

Post by Darlogramps » Sat May 15, 2021 2:37 pm

Within the first 10 days last year we’d raised more than 73K (which was nearly 75% of our initial target).

This time out, we’re just over halfway after just over two weeks so it’s definitely down.

And there’s without doubt nowhere near the buzz around it as 12 months ago, probably as a result of COVID, the departures and absolutely nothing happening for the last three months.

Couple of signings or key renewals would see it jump though. Has in previous seasons.
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Re: 6 players leave

Post by D_F_C » Sat May 15, 2021 6:02 pm

Darlogramps wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 2:37 pm
Within the first 10 days last year we’d raised more than 73K (which was nearly 75% of our initial target).

This time out, we’re just over halfway after just over two weeks so it’s definitely down.

And there’s without doubt nowhere near the buzz around it as 12 months ago, probably as a result of COVID, the departures and absolutely nothing happening for the last three months.

Couple of signings or key renewals would see it jump though. Has in previous seasons.
That's true, however there always seems to be a late surge which some people will get involved with. Granted I don't expect it to get anywhere near last years target, I'm hopeful we can get past 100k

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Re: 6 players leave

Post by onewayup » Sun May 16, 2021 8:59 am

Well I for one put in earlier last BTB ,but have still to put in this year ,after I have assessed my finances I will be increasing my donation definitely, others will be in the same situation I have no doubt. So a lot of people on here panicking , it's a very different year after what everyone has been through or going through, some poor souls have lost jobs so won't be in a position to donate. Time will tell. :thumbup:

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Re: 6 players leave

Post by Darlofan97 » Sun May 16, 2021 9:21 am

onewayup wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 8:59 am
Well I for one put in earlier last BTB ,but have still to put in this year ,after I have assessed my finances I will be increasing my donation definitely, others will be in the same situation I have no doubt. So a lot of people on here panicking , it's a very different year after what everyone has been through or going through, some poor souls have lost jobs so won't be in a position to donate. Time will tell. :thumbup:
You are mistaking "panicking" for, "wanting clear and engaging communication from the club".

I do not expect the whole squad and all new signings to be in place by mid-May. I do not expect information to be released before it's been signed, or for fans to be told granular and confidential information.

However, what I do expect, is for the club to effectively engage and communicate with its supporters when asking the very same supporters to achieve the highest BtB target to date. Whether this is via the club website, or via other media sources (TNE or NESN).

This isn't about the signings and departures themselves, more the level of communication surrounding player issues.

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