The vote of no confidence in the National league.

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theoriginalfatcat
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The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Wed May 26, 2021 3:59 pm

If I’ve understood this correctly, in the main league (step 1) no votes were in favour of “no confidence” but in the North and South leagues (step 2) 16 and 17 votes respectively were in favour of no confidence- making a total of 33 nth/Sth clubs that are not happy with Ives and co. I’m presuming here that Dover weren’t allowed to vote.

The vote failed because at step 2, each leagues majority voting can only total up to 4 votes per division, in other words - as long as the big dogs are kept happy the little dogs don’t matter.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by al_quaker » Thu May 27, 2021 6:14 am

I see the National League board are calling the result "convincing"

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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by joejaques » Thu May 27, 2021 7:06 am

al_quaker wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 6:14 am
I see the National League board are calling the result "convincing"
And Donald Trump won by a landslide. :roll:
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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Thu May 27, 2021 7:19 am

al_quaker wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 6:14 am
I see the National League board are calling the result "convincing"
It beggars belief how undemocratic the league structure is. More clubs voted yes than no - ie more clubs have no confidence as opposed to think things are okay YET the league board spin out that they’ve convincingly won.

It’s like a tin pot dictatorship.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by Quaker85 » Thu May 27, 2021 7:44 am

It’s difficult to see how the league can move forward as one after such a divisive vote and the whole saga has left a stain on the management committees reputation. To spin this as a victory just emphasises how inept they really are. They’re a laughing stock on social media.


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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by lo36789 » Thu May 27, 2021 7:51 am

theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 7:19 am
al_quaker wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 6:14 am
I see the National League board are calling the result "convincing"
It beggars belief how undemocratic the league structure is. More clubs voted yes than no - ie more clubs have no confidence as opposed to think things are okay YET the league board spin out that they’ve convincingly won.

It’s like a tin pot dictatorship.
Not sure what characteristics it shares with a dictatorship.

The league havent spun a convincing "win" they have just stated that the result was convincing, which statistically per their voting system it was. They aren't claiming victory.

Mark Ives in fact has explicitly said the result is irrelevant it great cause for concern that the vote was proposed. In terms of signalling that clubs concerns need to be addressed even if it is just two clubs (only takes two to propose and second a motion).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p09jp6ld?s=09

The vote is definitely more dysfunction democracy than dictatorship.

I mean remember we do tend to have majority governments in the UK voted for by 40%ish of the population. Similarly Trump was in the white house despite his opponent getting the vote of the majority of the population.

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The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by Darlogramps » Thu May 27, 2021 8:08 am

Surprise, surprise. Lo comes down on the side of authority yet again.

Less than half of the 66 members have confidence in the board. That should be an immediate resigning matter for the entire board, not just bumbling Barwick who is being allowed to slip away quietly.

Calling a result “convincing” when actually more clubs have voted in favour of no confidence IS an attempt at spin and claiming a win. It’s about as cynical and as arrogant as you can get.

The motion failed because of a dodgy voting system whereby National League clubs’ votes count five times more than NLN/NLS counterparts.

Mealy-mouthed platitudes from Mark Ives on it being “concerning”. What is he going to do as a result to avoid the fiasco we’ve seen this season? I won’t hold my breath on anything meaningful.

Genuine change needs to come about, starting with a proper voting system.
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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by eddie-rowles » Thu May 27, 2021 9:17 am

I Believe DJ and other club Chairmen/CEO will have a more in depth debate at the normal AGM and I hope real change can be made then otherwise we really are screwed

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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Thu May 27, 2021 12:59 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 7:51 am
Not sure what characteristics it shares with a dictatorship.
Well it's certainly not democratic when a "convincing" result is won by the least amount of cast votes!! Jesus H Christ!!

And let's not forget it was the result that the League obviously wanted and needed to save their skins. Furthermore the statement by the league is grade A Bollocks, they seem to have no idea as in how to calm any situation down.

This to me just means that if you're a club in the either the North or South, you're opinion and well being mean zilch.
Darlogramps wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 8:08 am
Genuine change needs to come about, starting with a proper voting system.
Too bloody right. I don't think Lo would like it if my vote was five times more important than his at a general election.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by lo36789 » Thu May 27, 2021 4:01 pm

theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 12:59 pm
Too bloody right. I don't think Lo would like it if my vote was five times more important than his at a general election.
Agree, but I don't think that would make you a dictator.

It's a convincing result based on the rules. I don't think at any point the league declare victory or a win.

Not quite sure how the issue is resolved within the current structure to be honest as I can't see the NL teams ever voting to diminish their voting power.

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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by onewayup » Thu May 27, 2021 4:19 pm

There are 66 clubs in the national league's
Of these 33 voted for the resolution 5 abstained that to me says the resolution passed 38 out of 66 that's 28 voted against the resolution. It's weighted with national league clubs vote counting 1 vote each club 4 votes NLN/ NLS .HOW MARK IVES SEE.S THIS AS carry on as normal I just don't know. The total value of the vote is screwed .Tracy crouch has her work cut to get this sorted.

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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by onewayup » Thu May 27, 2021 4:19 pm

There are 66 clubs in the national league's
Of these 33 voted for the resolution 5 abstained that to me says the resolution passed 38 out of 66 that's 28 voted against the resolution. It's weighted with national league clubs vote counting 1 vote each club 4 votes NLN/ NLS .HOW MARK IVES SEE.S THIS AS carry on as normal I just don't know. The total value of the vote is screwed .Tracy crouch has her work cut to get this sorted.

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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by Darlogramps » Thu May 27, 2021 4:56 pm

lo36789 wrote:
It's a convincing result based on the rules. I don't think at any point the league declare victory or a win.
The board absolutely are trying to claim victory. They called it a convincing result, despite the fact more members voted in favour of the motion than against.

“Claim victory”, “spin it as a positive”, word it however you want.

Claiming something as “convincing” when more think you’re bad at you job, is anything but convincing.

The arrogance of it is astonishing.
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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by Old Git » Thu May 27, 2021 5:19 pm

It is about as convincing as an election result in Belarus or Russia. The NL Management Committee should hang their heads in shame.

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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Thu May 27, 2021 5:30 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 4:01 pm
Agree, but I don't think that would make you a dictator.
I'd be a brilliant dictator Lo. :D

The first thing I'd do is turn the National League into a democratically run organisation - this would inevitably mean kicking Ives and co up the arse and out the door.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by bga » Thu May 27, 2021 7:00 pm

Old Git wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 5:19 pm
It is about as convincing as an election result in Belarus or Russia. The NL Management Committee should hang their heads in shame.
Meanwhile it would be really interesting to know how DFC voted? If we did not vote "No confidence," it would be interesting to learn now why?

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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by lo36789 » Thu May 27, 2021 10:20 pm

Pretty sure DJ said we supported no confidence.

I am not sure abstain votes are by definition votes in support of a motion either.

Sure there as talk that the motion wasn't to remove what was left of the board (circa 80% have already left after all) it was to try to use it as a trigger to change some of the articles.

Mark Ives wouldn't have been in scope of the vote anyway, after all he is just an employee of the National League he isn't a board member as far as I am aware.

When it comes to changing the voting structure there isn't actually much Ives can do, he works for the board who are appointed by the members, he has no capacity to change the voting rights of the company.

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The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by Darlogramps » Thu May 27, 2021 11:39 pm

lo36789 wrote:Pretty sure DJ said we supported no confidence.

I am not sure abstain votes are by definition votes in support of a motion either.

Sure there as talk that the motion wasn't to remove what was left of the board (circa 80% have already left after all) it was to try to use it as a trigger to change some of the articles.

Mark Ives wouldn't have been in scope of the vote anyway, after all he is just an employee of the National League he isn't a board member as far as I am aware.

When it comes to changing the voting structure there isn't actually much Ives can do, he works for the board who are appointed by the members, he has no capacity to change the voting rights of the company.
Not sure I’m buying the idea the general manager has no responsibility. Especially when he was sent out to bat in defence of the board yesterday. Ives, a former FA man, going in to defend a former FA chairman in Brian Barwick.

Where was Mr Barwick? Not a peep.

I’d hope some proposals for genuine change are tabled at the AGM because the current system of governance is appalling. A genuinely democratic voting system would be a start.

The National League clubs can’t be too wedded to it. After all, four drop down every season so will lose a great chunk of their influence if relegated. And two go up each year, so that’s a quarter of the teams losing their rights anyway. Struggle to see how anyone can in good faith accept eight votes being spread around 44 clubs (increasing to 48 clubs from the season after next).
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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by jjljks » Fri May 28, 2021 4:55 am

I hear Dom Cummings is looking for a new job & the National League board are just the kind of twisters he could manipulate

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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by lo36789 » Fri May 28, 2021 5:42 am

Darlogramps wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 11:39 pm
Not sure I’m buying the idea the general manager has no responsibility.
It would be the equivalent of a CEO of a FTSE100 company trying to change the voting rights of shareholders.

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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Fri May 28, 2021 6:40 am

lo36789 wrote:
Fri May 28, 2021 5:42 am
[quote=Darlogramps post_id=476203 time=<a href="tel:1622158764">1622158764</a> user_id=1218]Not sure I’m buying the idea the general manager has no responsibility.
It would be the equivalent of a CEO of a FTSE100 company trying to change the voting rights of shareholders.
[/quote]

If you relate this back - the shareholders in this case are the clubs, and it seems the majority of them want change. Ives should realise this and come up with ideas to ease the situation.

Some of the cock ups made in the last year have been inexcusable and my opinion is that Ives is concentrating on saving his job rather than thinking about meaningful change.

And then there’s the issue of fines still to be resolved. This will fester more bad feeling if it’s yet again mishandled.

And btw Lo, if you look at some of D.J’s statements he gives the impression that Ives has mislead the club on more than one occasion.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by Darlogramps » Fri May 28, 2021 7:29 am

lo36789 wrote:
Darlogramps wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 11:39 pm
Not sure I’m buying the idea the general manager has no responsibility.
It would be the equivalent of a CEO of a FTSE100 company trying to change the voting rights of shareholders.
Eh? Where did I mention getting Ives to change them?

I’m referring to you saying he’s not in scope, and therefore making out he’s free of all blame.

Yet he’s the one who went out to bat for the board to the media, parroting the same lines they did. And as TOFC points out, Ives is a part of the reason we’re in this mess anyway.

Oh, and your comparison with a FTSE 100 company doesn’t work anyway, for reasons which I’m sure are too tedious to get into.
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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by Quaker85 » Fri May 28, 2021 7:43 am

According to the POF podcast, the clubs had just four minutes to make their case as did the board. If individual clubs wished to make a case, they had just two minutes each.

It doesn’t sound like this was a particularly forensic process. More like speed dating really.


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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Fri May 28, 2021 8:31 am

Perhaps Barwick only had ten minutes free? That's if he actually exists.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by jjljks » Fri May 28, 2021 9:59 am

Quaker85 wrote:
Fri May 28, 2021 7:43 am
According to the POF podcast, the clubs had just four minutes to make their case as did the board. If individual clubs wished to make a case, they had just two minutes each.

It doesn’t sound like this was a particularly forensic process. More like speed dating really.

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Enough time to screw over fans & NLN/NLS clubs🤕

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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by lo36789 » Fri May 28, 2021 10:05 am

Proper governance route. Clubs nominate and vote for new board members. The GM is accountable to that board and is employed by them to run the company.

As clubs "we" need to identify board members and then vote them into positions. They then have the power to appoint a different GM. That is the proper route to get change.

We are shareholders in the organisation and per it's articles we have a lesser vote than NLP clubs (some shares are worth more than others).

That is really difficult to change mind as changes to articles would usually need a 75% vote in favour. Which we know basically makes it within the gift of the NLP clubs.

A general manager has no power to change that.

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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by lo36789 » Fri May 28, 2021 10:06 am

theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Fri May 28, 2021 8:31 am
Perhaps Barwick only had ten minutes free? That's if he actually exists.
Barwick has left I thought?

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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Fri May 28, 2021 10:20 am

lo36789 wrote:
Fri May 28, 2021 10:06 am
theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Fri May 28, 2021 8:31 am
Perhaps Barwick only had ten minutes free? That's if he actually exists.
Barwick has left I thought?

I thought it was at the end of the season, which is not over yet - but regardless of that he's been absent for over a year.

He was most likely appointed because of his name, his experience and his reputation. The trouble being that since the start of the pandemic he's been harder to find than a Willy Wonka Golden Ticket :thumbdown:
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by lo36789 » Fri May 28, 2021 10:24 am

theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 12:59 pm
Well it's certainly not democratic when a "convincing" result is won by the least amount of cast votes!! Jesus H Christ!!
Trump won 304 to 227 in 2016. Pretty convincing right?

In terms of popular vote he got 46.1% v 48.2% (Clinton).

The US is still recognised as a democracy as far as I am aware.

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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Fri May 28, 2021 11:46 am

I'm not familiar with the U.S voting system but I'm sure there will be reasons why votes work like they do, however I'm sure voting in a huge country with multiple States is much more complex than The National League.

I can see why step 1 clubs get more clout - but 5 times more!!
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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