The vote of no confidence in the National league.

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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by Maurice_Peddelty » Fri May 28, 2021 12:37 pm

theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Fri May 28, 2021 11:46 am
I'm not familiar with the U.S voting system but I'm sure there will be reasons why votes work like they do, however I'm sure voting in a huge country with multiple States is much more complex than The National League.

I can see why step 1 clubs get more clout - but 5 times more!!
The situation used to be very similar in the Football League (pre-Premier League). If I recall correctly, the Division 1 and 2 clubs had a vote each (total 44). Whereas the Division 3 and 4 clubs (48 clubs) only had 8 votes between them.

When the Alliance Premier League was first created in 1979 (later becoming the Football Conference) there was only one division. Presumably then each club had a single vote. When the Conference North and South divisions were added in 2004 it would have been quite deliberate that they were only granted 8 votes between them because this ensures the top flight maintains a 75% controlling interest in the competition.

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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by Quaker85 » Fri May 28, 2021 12:46 pm

Maurice_Peddelty wrote:
theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Fri May 28, 2021 11:46 am
I'm not familiar with the U.S voting system but I'm sure there will be reasons why votes work like they do, however I'm sure voting in a huge country with multiple States is much more complex than The National League.

I can see why step 1 clubs get more clout - but 5 times more!!
The situation used to be very similar in the Football League (pre-Premier League). If I recall correctly, the Division 1 and 2 clubs had a vote each (total 44). Whereas the Division 3 and 4 clubs (48 clubs) only had 8 votes between them.

When the Alliance Premier League was first created in 1979 (later becoming the Football Conference) there was only one division. Presumably then each club had a single vote. When the Conference North and South divisions were added in 2004 it would have been quite deliberate that they were only granted 8 votes between them because this ensures the top flight maintains a 75% controlling interest in the competition.
This seems right because if you look at the 4th division re-election voting history on Wikipedia, you will see that the maximum any club got was 52 votes.


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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by jjljks » Fri May 28, 2021 12:51 pm

French apartment owners have an interesting system when managing the services to their block. Each apartment owner gets votes according to the floorspace of their property, but also pay that proportion of any charges. So a broom closet owner gets some say (or charges) but not as much as the penthouse owner. Perhaps NL could adopt a similar model of votes around average crowd attendance? Certainly better than Borehamwood with tiny crowd but a croney of the Board, hoovering up handouts rather than clubs who rely on attendances. OK, I admit to some bias but this would have been a fairer way to distribute the initial handout.
The fact that no-one on the NL Board seemed to care or know what would happen in January is just plain incompetence. They should have hung heads in shame, apologised & resigned en masse.
Lo is right about improving governance & voting in a more equitable system.

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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by lo36789 » Fri May 28, 2021 1:01 pm

Tbf that is more like a shareholder system in a listed company. Whoever pays for more shares gets more control.

One member one vote is infinitely more fair, as everyone acts in their own self interest regardless. Those with more money / more fans will then do what is in their best interests.

The current system is flawed, but I don't know how it can legally be changed, and certainly not by the general manager, I think it would actually need FA as governing body intervention I imagine. They license the league to operate if that were at risk they would have to act.

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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by spen666 » Sun May 30, 2021 4:50 pm

For those who have access to the NLP - there is an article on Page 2 today headlined
"STEP 2: GIVE US A FAIR CRACK
"We're treated like second-class citizens"


I can't post the article as an image on here, but hopefully if you follow this link you can see the article

Article based on quotes from Hemel Hempstead Chairman, but basically saying needs to be a more equitable division of power

https://ibb.co/mSN3XmZ

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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by lo36789 » Sun May 30, 2021 9:18 pm

Interestingly clear support for Mark Ives in that and clear reference to the issues being with the arts...and also the view that the NL clubs won't vote to diminish their power.

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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Sun May 30, 2021 10:09 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Sun May 30, 2021 9:18 pm
Interestingly clear support for Mark Ives in that and clear reference to the issues being with the arts...and also the view that the NL clubs won't vote to diminish their power.
I don't read it that way. Ives hasn't got 'clear support" - yes there were a few hollow platitudes thrown his way in this article but over the last year I've seen large amounts serious criticism aimed at him from a number of club chairman, including our own. He's wound a lot of people up and he's got form for saying one thing - doing another.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by Darlogramps » Sun May 30, 2021 10:25 pm

lo36789 wrote:Tbf that is more like a shareholder system in a listed company. Whoever pays for more shares gets more control.

One member one vote is infinitely more fair, as everyone acts in their own self interest regardless. Those with more money / more fans will then do what is in their best interests.

The current system is flawed, but I don't know how it can legally be changed, and certainly not by the general manager, I think it would actually need FA as governing body intervention I imagine. They license the league to operate if that were at risk they would have to act.
Why do you keep banging on about the General Manager not being able to change the voting system?

No one in this thread is asking for him to do that.

Are you just being a bit thick? All people have said is the General Manager bears some responsibility for the mess that occurred this season, which is demonstrably true.
If ever you're bored or miserable:

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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by lo36789 » Mon May 31, 2021 7:23 am

theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Sun May 30, 2021 10:09 pm
lo36789 wrote:
Sun May 30, 2021 9:18 pm
Interestingly clear support for Mark Ives in that and clear reference to the issues being with the arts...and also the view that the NL clubs won't vote to diminish their power.
I don't read it that way. Ives hasn't got 'clear support" - yes there were a few hollow platitudes thrown his way in this article but over the last year I've seen large amounts serious criticism aimed at him from a number of club chairman, including our own. He's wound a lot of people up and he's got form for saying one thing - doing another.
But the actually words in the article which that is based on "Mark Ives is very good.".

Followed by numerous other quotes about him understanding the predicament of clubs and that he does listen to them.

I thought David Johnstone's main issue was the GM in role when the DCMS agreement was made and communicated to the clubs in August?

After all he only started midway through January when all the previous lottery money had been allocated. If I am not mistaken within 10 days of starting he had overseen the distribution of the resolutions to null and void the season to clubs, and agreed to the suspension of the season, and per the competition rules it is the board who issue sanctions not the general manager.

My memory is he started on 11/01 and I remember discussing the resolutions whether the season would continue at Notts County on 23/01. We were actually thinking that could have been the last game of the season given NLN/NLS weren't playing.

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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Mon May 31, 2021 10:14 am

lo36789 wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 7:23 am
But the actually words in the article which that is based on "Mark Ives is very good.".

Followed by numerous other quotes about him understanding the predicament of clubs and that he does listen to them.
I think that's "blah blah". I could fish out numerous quotes stating the opposite.

Lo. Let’s briefly run through the bigger mismanagement issues that the League decision makers have served up lately.

We have the multiple cock ups re last years play off games.
The allocation of grants.
Commissioning a report about the distribution of these grants then not acting on it and suppressing it, some people say there are issues of dishonesty here.
Then we have the grants will be loans fiasco and the fact that no minutes were taken in any of the big meetings where this was discussed, “a schoolboy error” D.J. was quoted as saying.
Then dragging their heels at the end of the season in relation to what to do - and as in the previous play off issue, clubs are asked to vote on ill thought out proposals.
And in the case of the fines imposed for not fulfilling fixtures, saying one thing and doing another.

As a side issue throughout all this Barwick has been missing in action - or missing in inaction BOOM BOOM ;)

So by memory Lo, I’m sure you’ve defended everyone involved here. I’m sure I can remember you saying stuff like “don’t blame the board members, they’re only volunteers” “don’t blame Barwick and Ives as we could get worse” but come on. If no humans can be held to blame for the state the league is in then what’s the point in having anyone? We might as well be run by a computer, but even on saying that, computers can be re programmed (by humans)

These people have been put in place to do a job and they’ve failed. All of them!

If nothing at all is expected of them because no one can change anything, or nothing is expected from them in the way of doing things properly and fairly then they might as well employ a computer - or me, because I haven’t got a job at the moment. What I’m saying is -these people are more than just figureheads, there is something expected of them re the positions they hold.

I don’t understand your viewpoint Lo tbh.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by onewayup » Mon May 31, 2021 10:24 am

Originalfatcat .I totally agree they have not come forward with any explanation as to any of the disastrous decisions that they made .my biggest problem with them is the
disastrous distribution disparity of the 11millon lottery grant. Which they now say was 10millon. Strange goings on.
You would think that they would want to show they've taken right decisions.??????
Instead they hide from the situation they created. Hopeing it will go away. Tracy crouch is hopefully going to come and cleanse the lot and get to the actual truth about it all.

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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by lo36789 » Mon May 31, 2021 11:08 am

theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 10:14 am
I don’t understand your viewpoint Lo tbh.
I'm saying blaming Mark Ives for something which predated his role is probably a tad unfair.

Equally that demanding to replace a board where 60% or something have already left their roles isn't exactly that productive.

The reality is most of those who were "in charge" during the ending of last season, the allocation of funding and meetings surrounding funding this season aren't in role anymore, and of those remaining they are leaving anyway as their term is up or announced retirement.

We've had our protest vote for what that was ever going to achieve, made a bit of noise. The reality is the NLN and NLS clubs need to identify the candidates they want to appoint to board positions and then vote them in. There are enough vacancies going.

To make changes you have to do it within the legal bounds of the company. It is wasted calories trying to go through any other route.

The other thing I said was I could understand why those who are left applied the articles of association to the letter re the sanctions. As failure to do that would have made them personally liable for any losses subsequently brought by members and stakeholders as it would have effectively been a breach of company law.

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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by en passant » Mon May 31, 2021 11:28 am

theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 10:14 am
lo36789 wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 7:23 am
But the actually words in the article which that is based on "Mark Ives is very good.".

Followed by numerous other quotes about him understanding the predicament of clubs and that he does listen to them.
I think that's "blah blah". I could fish out numerous quotes stating the opposite.

Lo. Let’s briefly run through the bigger mismanagement issues that the League decision makers have served up lately.

We have the multiple cock ups re last years play off games.
The allocation of grants.
Commissioning a report about the distribution of these grants then not acting on it and suppressing it, some people say there are issues of dishonesty here.
Then we have the grants will be loans fiasco and the fact that no minutes were taken in any of the big meetings where this was discussed, “a schoolboy error” D.J. was quoted as saying.
Then dragging their heels at the end of the season in relation to what to do - and as in the previous play off issue, clubs are asked to vote on ill thought out proposals.
And in the case of the fines imposed for not fulfilling fixtures, saying one thing and doing another.

As a side issue throughout all this Barwick has been missing in action - or missing in inaction BOOM BOOM ;)

So by memory Lo, I’m sure you’ve defended everyone involved here. I’m sure I can remember you saying stuff like “don’t blame the board members, they’re only volunteers” “don’t blame Barwick and Ives as we could get worse” but come on. If no humans can be held to blame for the state the league is in then what’s the point in having anyone? We might as well be run by a computer, but even on saying that, computers can be re programmed (by humans)

These people have been put in place to do a job and they’ve failed. All of them!

If nothing at all is expected of them because no one can change anything, or nothing is expected from them in the way of doing things properly and fairly then they might as well employ a computer - or me, because I haven’t got a job at the moment. What I’m saying is -these people are more than just figureheads, there is something expected of them re the positions they hold.

I don’t understand your viewpoint Lo tbh.
I agree with these sentiments. I think the points Lo makes do work if you agree that it generally makes sense for everyone abide by the rules and that the rules, when implemented, were acceptable to the majority who then agreed to them being the code by which the League and its constituent parts adhere to. In most situations the rules work and those that have oversight of them are not called on to do much more than give them the odd tweak now and then. But rules don't do well in exceptional circumstances as the Covid crisis has exposed in many more places than the world of football. And as with other forms of governance, the guardians of the rules can come unstuck when faced with the unprecedented. They tend to be elephants not mountain goats, and demand that we stick to what we know (the rules) rather than do some fancy mental footwork to find original solutions to complicated and changing circumstances. The worst of this attitude is seen in the tendency to almost ignore that there is a crisis and just follow all the existing methods of controlling events by obsessively clinging to rules and doing things as they have always been done. In this line of thinking the rules become something that is not man made, and are beyond being tinkered with because it is easier to do this than go out on a limb and be creative. If things go wrong you can be truly unstuck if you do this, but if you stick to the rules, who can blame you? As the events of the last year have shown, rules sometimes do need to be broken, and reformed, and it should be possible to find ways to do so. The rules were created by people and therefore can be changed by people. They are not sacrosanct or immutable.

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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Mon May 31, 2021 1:49 pm

Good post en passant. I go along with what you've put.
lo36789 wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 11:08 am
The reality is the NLN and NLS clubs need to identify the candidates they want to appoint to board positions and then vote them in. There are enough vacancies going.
Lo, I'm wondering if this is even possible? We've seen on numerous occasions that step 2 clubs have virtually no influence when it comes to votes.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by lo36789 » Mon May 31, 2021 2:06 pm

theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 1:49 pm
Good post en passant. I go along with what you've put.
lo36789 wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 11:08 am
The reality is the NLN and NLS clubs need to identify the candidates they want to appoint to board positions and then vote them in. There are enough vacancies going.
Lo, I'm wondering if this is even possible? We've seen on numerous occasions that step 2 clubs have virtually no influence when it comes to votes.
We can still propose and second a nomination...but yes the voting powers would mean the NL clubs would effectively decide the outcome.

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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:27 pm

I see that our appeal against the £2000 fine is set for next Thursday, let’s see if the National League see fit to offer up a bit of common sense to us and the other clubs involved.

Or will they take the chance to cash in and make some money.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by lo36789 » Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:11 pm

Is it the league who hear the appeal? Thought it was usually an independent body.

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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:45 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:11 pm
Is it the league who hear the appeal? Thought it was usually an independent body.
You could be right Lo. It's just that when you write 'independent body' I read 'the league' - I'm funny like that ;)
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by lo36789 » Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:38 am

I'm not optimistic. The FA appeals panel will be entirely fact based.

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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by onewayup » Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:48 am

The national league's appeal process is because of this present situation not fit for purpose as are the rules. And fines imposed in an already fraught season caused by this coronavirus. It needs a total reset. But with jobs for the old boys I can't see that happening anytime soon.
Hopefully as has been said they look at the fines situation and realise that they are not correct because of this whole scenario last of season .nobody is to blame other than coronavirus. And rules which haven't been bent to suitably.

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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by onewayup » Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:51 am

The national league's appeal process is because of this present situation not fit for purpose as are the rules. And fines imposed in an already fraught season caused by this coronavirus. It needs a total reset. But with jobs for the old boys I can't see that happening anytime soon.
Hopefully as has been said they look at the fines situation and realise that they are not correct because of this whole scenario last of season .nobody is to blame other than coronavirus. And rules which haven't been bent to suitably. To account for an unseen pandemic. Basically common sense should have prevailed.

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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by Old Git » Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:52 am

Forget justice and common sense we will lose.

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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by jjljks » Fri Jun 04, 2021 10:32 am

Old Git wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:52 am
Forget justice and common sense we will lose.
Then Mike Amos takes Chairman on NL Board, just when you thought 2021 could not get any worse😉

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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by loan_star » Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:22 am

Appeals are generally a waste of time. Fact is we didnt play the game as they thought we should. They rarely care about reasons why. Even if you think you have a clear cut justification they get you on a technicality by wording any charge in a way that theres no way out of it.

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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by lo36789 » Fri Jun 04, 2021 12:02 pm

I suspect it's more they will argue that we didn't play that particular game was that we thought the season was going to end, so didn't want to incur costs that would effectively be wasted, and that isn't what they deem a valid reason.

We will obviously be arguing that we were making a decision to cease playing the season as the removal of funding risked the future of the club. Only issue is we then played another game in that playing season a week later.

We could genuinley come unstuck because of the Trophy game, the likes of Spennymoor made a clear statement along the lines of that second paragraph and furloughed all staff and didn't play anymore.

The revenue potential is of course what we will use in defence of that, but I do think our position is slightly weaker than others who may be appealing as a result of the Trophy game.

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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by tdk1 » Fri Jun 04, 2021 12:33 pm

I think the defence will be that the season was declared null and void, so strictly speaking the fixture we're being fined for doesn't exist.

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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Fri Jun 04, 2021 1:53 pm

loan_star wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:22 am
Appeals are generally a waste of time. Fact is we didnt play the game as they thought we should. They rarely care about reasons why. Even if you think you have a clear cut justification they get you on a technicality by wording any charge in a way that theres no way out of it.

Thinking back to an old interview - D.J. (and advisor) were adamant that they had multiple strong legal reasons why that game wasn't played. They sounded good to me as well, I suppose I'm biased here but even so, I don't think D.J. would pick a fight that he didn't think he could (or should) win.

Meanwhile, as said above the rules simply weren't designed to include a global pandemic, mixed with the league's grants 'will be loans' fiasco.

I wonder where the fine money goes. With all the clubs involved it's a nice little earner, brought about by the League's incompetence, because let's face it - if the second tranche of funding had been loans then all clubs would have played on.
Last edited by theoriginalfatcat on Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by Old Git » Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:19 pm

We may have strong reasons for not playing the Boston game but I think all that will matter is that we defied the NL. The fact we subsequently played a FA Trophy match further weakens our position. We will have to take our medicine but at least we have a bit of cash in hand from BTB so not a problem.

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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:22 pm

Old Git wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:19 pm
We will have to take our medicine but at least we have a bit of cash in hand from BTB so not a problem.
Kind of is a problem. That money was raised by fans to help with our budget :thumbup:

Not to swell the coffers of league who in main brought about the issue themselves by their mismanagement and incompetence.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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Re: The vote of no confidence in the National league.

Post by Old Git » Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:55 pm

theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:22 pm
Old Git wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:19 pm
We will have to take our medicine but at least we have a bit of cash in hand from BTB so not a problem.
Kind of is a problem. That money was raised by fans to help with our budget :thumbup:

Not to swell the coffers of league who in main brought about the issue themselves by their mismanagement and incompetence.
Agreed but don’t expect the League to see it that way.

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