Club fine

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jjljks
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Re: Club fine

Post by jjljks » Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:22 pm

Not really expecting anything from TC's review, in fact just seen her coming out of Glenwoods with a massive 1000 litre drum of whitewash.

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Re: Club fine

Post by quakersfan » Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:01 pm

Not totally surprised, time to move on and concentrate on next season.

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theoriginalfatcat
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Re: Club fine

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:11 pm

Surely there must be some change in the rules, if indeed "rules" is the right word.

There needs to be something added that says ' if by any unexpected event the government bans fans from attending fixtures for a period of time longer than X days with no financial compensation for loss in revenue, then member clubs have the right to cancel said fixtures without fear of penalty from the League.

Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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onewayup
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Re: Club fine

Post by onewayup » Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:57 pm

Well they again prove that it is the national league's management that needs changing, full of legal jargon and not one ounce of regret for decisions that they have made, which created the positions in which clubs found themselves, Massive cull has to happen at the next AGM. Tracey crouch really has her work cut to sort this shambolic lot ,maybe it's the way I think but to me this is dictatorship.

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Re: Club fine

Post by spen666 » Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:16 pm

onewayup wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:57 pm
Well they again prove that it is the national league's management that needs changing, full of legal jargon and not one ounce of regret for decisions that they have made, which created the positions in which clubs found themselves, ....
Appeal Board is independent of NL Management

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theoriginalfatcat
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Re: Club fine

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:20 pm

Meanwhile ollie Bayliss keeps on trying to dig up the buried Bernstein report and it looks like he may be getting somewhere.

It's obvious now that The League's top priority is looking after themselves, and that 'Global Pandemic" coupled with their gross mismanagement is seen as not just cause.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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lo36789
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Re: Club fine

Post by lo36789 » Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:47 pm

onewayup wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:57 pm
Well they again prove that it is the national league's management that needs changing
This was the FA appeals not the league management
onewayup wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:57 pm
Massive cull has to happen at the next AGM.
Can you call it a cull if everyone has left already or is up for re-election? They voluntarily culled themselves.
onewayup wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:57 pm
Tracey crouch really has her work cut to sort this shambolic lot
I don't think this review will even get close to the management of the National League. I suspect it will focus almost entirely on club ownership.
onewayup wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:57 pm
maybe it's the way I think but to me this is dictatorship.
Who is the dictator?

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theoriginalfatcat
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Re: Club fine

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:11 pm

I'll stick up for onewayup here because I can see what he means (I think) - To your points Lo....

1. The League's management needs changing regardless. Lo, what positive things have the current management done to help clubs that have been hit by the multiple problems they've faced? They hide behind rules and appeal panels etc, and won't accept that they've caused many of the problems themselves. "It was all done before my time guv, zzzzz"

2. Ive's (I.M.O) has been complicit - he can be culled. He's in for the long haul and probably wants an MBE or similar like the vanished Barwick.

3. I agree with you here. Tracy won't dwell much on the National League balls ups.

4. The dictator in some ways is the National League. It dictates it's self serving view onto step 2 clubs, and step 2 clubs haven't sufficient power to do anything about it. As long as step 1 clubs are kept sweet then all's fine.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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lo36789
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Re: Club fine

Post by lo36789 » Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:52 pm

theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:11 pm
2. Ives (I.M.O) has been complicit - he can be culled. He's in for the long haul and probably wants an MBE or similar like the vanished Barwick.
Jesus he's only been in role for 16 weeks! He can't be culled by an AGM though. He's not an elected director.

The new directors may get voted in on the basis of appointing a new MD though. Guess that's for us to put forward a volunteer nominee on that basis.

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Re: Club fine

Post by lo36789 » Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:38 pm

FWIW. My tuppence.

There will be a new board, Mark Ives will remain in role, Step 1 will continue to have a majority vote.

I don't think the new board will see Ives as being on the hook for what happened before 11th January (when he started). I am still not that sure what you are holding him responsible for since then tbh.

The charges that were issued per the comp rules are done so by the board (it's above his head). The vote for the suspension was facilitated by Ives, as was the two week suspension (which I think were positive moves). The money had already gone and been distributed (he can't really do much about that).

That said to remove him they would also have to show that he hadn't performed in his role (met his objectives and targets), that an adequate performance improvement plan had been put in place and that it isn't unfair dismissal...otherwise the league (and ultimately it's members as it would be a dent in the company finances) will have an almighty legal bill to pay as compensation. He is after all just a contracted employee.

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theoriginalfatcat
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Re: Club fine

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:09 pm

It’s all gone swimmingly since 11th Jan :crazy:

Tell you what Lo, Ives surely must be complicit in the burying of the Bernstein report.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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lo36789
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Re: Club fine

Post by lo36789 » Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:09 am

theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:09 pm
It’s all gone swimmingly since 11th Jan :crazy:

Tell you what Lo, Ives surely must be complicit in the burying of the Bernstein report.
Well within 10 days he'd orchestrated the proposals to end the season which needed to give the necessary time per any proposal to be responded to. His main act since joining was facilitating the legal steps to end the season and the two week pause on fixtures, it could have been longer but that was under intense scrutiny from some clubs for biasing the result of the vote (not enough matchdays to complete the season).

Per the league rules charges for non compliance are issued by the board, after a board meeting.

The report was issued to the Chairman and the board. As an employee you can't just release sensitive company information off your own back, well not unless you want to breach the terms of your employment.

I seriously think you confuse the role of the general manager. He is predominantly responsible for managing the 14 or so staff who administer the league (fixtures, player registrations, sponsorship, broadcasting etc.) in line with the leagues articles and competition rules.

He reports to the board as an employee with a very set role and responsibility to manage the operation of the league.

The reality is. He could have been encouraging the release of the report, or he could have been supporting a decision not to release. Ultimately we don't know. It is quite a leap to say someone is complicit just because they are the most senior employee.

All for blaming people...if they are actually to blame. I expect you would find it unfair if someone blamed you for something which within your control / responsibility.

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Re: Club fine

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:48 am

It seems to me that the League are a rudderless ship. Nobody seems to have any power, any ideas. Nobody takes any responsibility.

Ive's predecessor bogged off without working through his notice, Barwick fell asleep for a long period of time, the report got buried and lots of other things I can't be bothered to mention, however they won't fine themselves or even look at themselves, no - they just dish out counterproductive financial penalties to cash strapped clubs and then some people (I'm thinking of you Lo) have the opinion that no one is to blame, and that nothing can be done.

I'm glad that some clubs have Chairman who will be looking at this, the phrase 'don't get mad get even' springs to mind.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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Re: Club fine

Post by lo36789 » Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:05 pm

You have just hit the nail on the head. Most of those to blame left without notice, that doesn't mean you blame the person who takes the seat afterward because they are there. That is illogical.

That was 4/6 (I believe) board members + the previous CEO.

The league can't fine themselves that would be a complete breakdown of governing body v entity relationship. The FA are the regulator of the league they could fine the league theoretically...but the reality is the assets of the league are attributable to the members (clubs) so "we" would actually suffer from that.

You are absolutely right it is rudderless because everybody with responsibility has been chased from their roles with threats of personal legal action being taken against them for not adhering to the articles of association.

Remember the mess we were in when the directors resigned en masse. It took Martin J a good 18months to 2 years to unpick the aftermath of that.

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Re: Club fine

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:41 am

A very concise statement from Curzon Ashton.


Curzon Ashton FC:

"We are extremely disappointed with the decision by the FA Disciplinary Panel to impose a £8,000 fine plus costs".

"Common sense has not prevailed in light of unprecedented circumstances and false promises."
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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lo36789
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Re: Club fine

Post by lo36789 » Thu Jun 17, 2021 3:37 pm

Don't think anyone disagrees that it is disappointing. The FA didn't impose the fines though. The league did.

The FA just didn't find any reason why the fines were unconstitutional, which was all that is in their remit.

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Re: Club fine

Post by jjljks » Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:06 pm

theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:41 am
A very concise statement from Curzon Ashton.


Curzon Ashton FC:

"We are extremely disappointed with the decision by the FA Disciplinary Panel to impose a £8,000 fine plus costs".

"Common sense has not prevailed in light of unprecedented circumstances and false promises."
Jeez! I thought we were hard done by but I feel sorry for Ashton. Never thought I would have written that about Curzon Ashton :o

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theoriginalfatcat
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Re: Club fine

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:24 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 3:37 pm
Don't think anyone disagrees that it is disappointing. The FA didn't impose the fines though. The league did.

The FA just didn't find any reason why the fines were unconstitutional, which was all that is in their remit.
Lo, in your world the Buck never stops anywhere.

It’s not the F.A. Because…
It’s not the appeal board. Because…
It’s not The League,. Because…..
Or Ives. Because..
Or Barwick. Because…

It’s like you think “the system” is a thing that exists in its own right, but it doesn’t. Some human, somewhere at some point should have thought “ hang on chaps, there’s a fookin global pandemic, normal rules don’t apply, let’s actually think about doing things slightly differently”

But no, the people in power here are the sort of people who if they were being attacked by a Grizzly Bear in their own house, would be more concerned about the possibility of finding a spoon in the knife drawer - than by dying.
Last edited by theoriginalfatcat on Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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Re: Club fine

Post by lo36789 » Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:43 pm

The league board are responsible for the fine. You just seem to want to blame any named individual for others actions.

Look personally, I thought the league could / should have given a token £1 fines. That would I believe had meant they fulfilled their duties but obviously wouldn't have been of material impact to the clubs.

That said, I am not privvy to the legal advice the board received.

In the absence of any evidence beyond personal emotion the assumption is surely that people acted in good faith, within the legal bounds of their roles.

I still haven't seen anything which proves otherwise and that the actions were vindictive or incompetent.

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Re: Club fine

Post by eddie-rowles » Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:23 am

Mark Ives in my opinion is as much to blame as Barwick, he had an option very early on to come clean what went on with DCMS, clear the air with BT sport and main sponsor Vanarama admit they got it wrong and move on. But no he continued with the cover up offered only one option to NLN & S teams and then stuck knife in deeper when as DJ explained he could of started afresh but left it to the Emergency GM which he knew would go his way.
The NL is a joke it does not serve the needs of the clubs who play in it and numerous managers have spoken to the media including AA clearly explaining it is broken and that it is not fit for purpose yet Ives Mr Ah Em Ah em wishes to continue with the same format. Hopefully Ollie Baylis uncovers the truth and forces these idiots out and we just move NLP to join with EFL 2 make it EFL2 N/S and eventually in the coming years we get EFL 3 N/S if majority are full time.

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Re: Club fine

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:55 am

eddie-rowles wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:23 am
Mark Ives in my opinion is as much to blame as Barwick, he had an option very early on to come clean what went on with DCMS, clear the air with BT sport and main sponsor Vanarama admit they got it wrong and move on. But no he continued with the cover up offered only one option to NLN & S teams and then stuck knife in deeper when as DJ explained he could of started afresh but left it to the Emergency GM which he knew would go his way.
The NL is a joke it does not serve the needs of the clubs who play in it and numerous managers have spoken to the media including AA clearly explaining it is broken and that it is not fit for purpose yet Ives Mr Ah Em Ah em wishes to continue with the same format. Hopefully Ollie Baylis uncovers the truth and forces these idiots out and we just move NLP to join with EFL 2 make it EFL2 N/S and eventually in the coming years we get EFL 3 N/S if majority are full time.

GREAT POST :thumbup: It seems that Ives has no imagination, he wants to manage the fall out, surreptitiously move the blame to others, then continue with the status quo.

I hope that Lo doesn't think I've got it in for him - I haven't, It's just that we have a fundamental difference of opinion. I feel that the people involved have let us and other clubs down over this, not some faceless machine that grinds on regardless.

And Re Ollie Bayliss, he's doing a great job in trying to uncover this report however it's a sad state of affairs that a rather minor BBC journalist is the only one who seems to be on the case. This possibly illustrates why the League feel untouchable, most things they do fall under the radar.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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Re: Club fine

Post by lo36789 » Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:29 am

It's more that I need evidence to believe that people haven't acted in good faith or have acted illegally. Everything to date points to the league / administration stretched the bounds of what they could legally do to get the step 2 season null and void and apply the minimum sanction possible for breaches of league rules.

I genuinely don't know what you mean about only offered one option to NLN/S teams and left it to the EGM tbh? Is Ives to blame for the articles of association of the league now which determine voting rights?

The only way to change the articles / competition rules is through an EGM there is no other legal way to do it, that is the fact.

If someone is starving and has no money and they steal some food (feel like I could be quoting song lyrics here), the law will still see that as theft. Common sense may be more forgiving.

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Re: Club fine

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:47 am

Ives. If he's got any power he should use it to treat the step 2 clubs fairly, make sure their voice is heard, realise that a lot of mistakes about last season were the league's fault, do something about the unfair fines, make some new rules appear that reflect upon what to do in case C19 returns and finally release the Bernstein report.

Ives. If he hasn't got any power, then what's the point in him? If he's only a jobsworth type figurehead then he might as well not be there.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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Re: Club fine

Post by onewayup » Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:22 am

The whole of the league management is jobs worth, not one has a clue.follow the trail of previous incumbents.

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Re: Club fine

Post by lo36789 » Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:32 am

theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:47 am
Ives. If he's got any power he should use it to treat the step 2 clubs fairly, make sure their voice is heard, realise that a lot of mistakes about last season were the league's fault, do something about the unfair fines, make some new rules appear that reflect upon what to do in case C19 returns and finally release the Bernstein report.

Ives. If he hasn't got any power, then what's the point in him? If he's only a jobsworth type figurehead then he might as well not be there.
A general manager cannot change the articles of association of a company unilaterally.

He has a specific role. To administer and manage the admin staff of the league. Well actually he will have more than that. To maximise advertising revenues, to ensure that the competition is operated in line with the competition rules etc.

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Re: Club fine

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:01 pm

Lo, in your understanding of the national league structure, is there any one person who is paid to think? It's just that me and you are going round in circles here. I feel that you think the circumstances surrounding C19 were just too difficult for the league to cope with and so it was bound to end in failure.

I think that somebody then, and somebody now could have done better, could have improved things - but that somebody isn't Ives.

Anyway, I'm away from this for now, but I await Ollie digging out the report.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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Re: Club fine

Post by lo36789 » Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:06 pm

theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:01 pm
I feel that you think the circumstances surrounding C19 were just too difficult for the league to cope with and so it was bound to end in failure.
Not sure what you mean.

There was plenty. Mike Tattersall completely messed up getting a funding deal which didn't extend beyond three months (he was responsible for co-ordinating that).

Not sure the guy who within a day of starting had begun to determine the legal steps necessary to let clubs vote to end the season is the one to blame though. He didnt even have the benefit of having any records taken back when the agreement was made to help him chase down what happened.

Also many leagues asked the FA to update the national League system rulebook to have a clause in it if the season is ended prematurely due to covid / clauses around it. The FA refused, the leagues cannot operate a league that doesn't comply with FA handbook. The FA leagues committee should have been more forward thinking.

No insurance, not affiliated, not a legal competition.

The idea that a general manager can unilaterally make changes to the company articles, can change the competition rules because it seems sensible and can choose to apply or not apply the rules as prescribed to do so by the company owners (members) actually sounds an awful lot like a dictatorship that you are after. If Mark Ives was a dictator within the NL he could have done all these things, unfortunately the way it is set up it is actually down to the members (the clubs) to put forward motions / proposals for changes to the rules / articles and then vote them through unfortunately there are legally no other ways to change them.

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Re: Club fine

Post by bga » Sat Sep 11, 2021 9:45 am

I know we lost the appeal but then said we were considering our position. Presumably we've just ended up paying the fine and left it at that unless I missed something?

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