Spennymoor game

[Darlogramps]

You’re never going to criticise referees as it might affect your own progress, so you’ll defend them.

Your own bias undermines your credibility I’m afraid.

Pretty sure I said he got them wrong? I can see why he got it wrong based on position and angles.

Using stills from the opposite side of the ground saying "how did the ref not see this" well it's a pretty obvious answer. He didn't have that view.

Point is any decision made will be with the view that was what they thought happened. If it's wrong then it's wrong but there is no agenda beyond that.

That’s a pretty big assumption. Unless you were in the referee’s head that day, there’s no way you can claim to know what he’s thinking. Unless you have developed your own form of telekinesis.

He’d made a mistake earlier in sending Thompson off. Was regularly under pressure from home players. Plus he was involved in a “derby” with a highly charged atmosphere.

It’s not at all illogical that a weak referee could succumb to unconscious bias in that situation.

[Darlogramps]

you’ve said this in the past and from your previous comments I’ve worked out your identity)

Well aren't you clever.

Not really, just followed the comments you yourself made. Wasn’t difficult to work out when you posted on here which game you’d done. Took me all of five minutes to work out.

Given you’ve made three straight replies to one post, it’s clearly rattled you.

I also notice you’ve dodged my criticism of your “It was only five minutes” comment. That is so telling about the way referees think, and how dismissive you all are of any sort of criticism or scrutiny.

[lo36789]

Nope. Was just a comment about that specific incident. I responded to one part and then re read your post over anything and realised you had said other stuff and that one stuck out - is it meant to be a threat?

To be honest I thought it was a bit later the highlights made out the full time whistle came after that free kick. It's only when I checked the time it was a bit earlier but there is no guarantee we would have scored had it panned out differently. It was a the death.

Spennymoor can ultimately be more aggrieved they played for a lot longer with 10 men than they should have.

[theoriginalfatcat]

From the highlights I can see why Thompson was sent off.

Harsh maybe, but if you fly in like that you always take a risk and you should know that.

There’s quite a number of players at Spennymoor with attitude, I reckon that the new management will only make matters worse but playing like this can only get you so far.

When Fylde came to Darlo they showed what a good team looks like. They played proper football, fast, accurate and with good movement and they didn’t resort to OTT whining and ref baiting - from watching the highlights the behaviour of a certain core group of S’moor players was pathetic.

[lo36789]

From the highlights I can see why Thompson was sent off.

Harsh maybe, but if you fly in like that you always take a risk and you should know that.

100% it is incorrect but can see why it could have been viewed in that way, in real time from a particular position on the field.

By the same token you raise your arm to an opponent, no matter how much it is to genuinley push a player off, you run a risk it will be seen for more than if is. Easy to say when not in that position and having felt pinned by said opponent - but is the reality.

[theoriginalfatcat]

From the highlights I can see why Thompson was sent off.

Harsh maybe, but if you fly in like that you always take a risk and you should know that.

100% it is incorrect but can see why it could have been viewed in that way, in real time from a particular position on the field.

By the same token you raise your arm to an opponent, no matter how much it is to genuinley push a player off, you run a risk it will be seen for more than if is. Easy to say when not in that position and having felt pinned by said opponent - but is the reality.

I’ve just watched it again. Thompson is sliding inwards towards the ball with his studs showing towards the ball and if no other player was coming in that’s what would have happened - his studs would have knocked the ball. The complication here is that our player gets to the ball before Thompson, hence crunch!

So I think my point stands, if you go in like this you stand the chance of getting sent off, studs up and all that. Unless of course I’ve completely misunderstood the rule about this?

As a side issue I don’t like to see any players sent off for a straight red, the two red cards in question here were harsh.

[lo36789]

So I think my point stands, if you go in like this you stand the chance of getting sent off, studs up and all that. Unless of course I’ve completely misunderstood the rule about this

Studs are generally off the floor in any tackle. It's how feet work.

He's not left the ground, he's not out of control, there isn't particularly excessive force in the challenge and therefore doesn't endanger the safety of his opponent. The foot isn't particularly high either and there is no ankle roll.

The tackle has been judged to have had speed / intensity and I think judged that the foot did endanger safety. The way Thompson extends his leg to attempt to nudge the ball is what will have done it for him.

There is no rule about "studs up".

[don'tbuythesun]

Interesting debate apart from the "I know who you are" stuff. I'd expected more grown up behaviour from a grandad who is usually so eloquent. Unless you've been the man or woman in the middle it's difficult to understand how difficult the job is. Trying to watch the whole game, keep up with play and cope with the constant nagging of certain players, why would you bother!! It's evident that lo refs at a high level and has plenty of experience in these situations and how the laws of the game should be applied. I'm not saying I agree with all his comments but find it useful to put decisions in perspective. I still think Luke's sending off was a yellow card.

[theoriginalfatcat]

I’m not sure he’s in control lo. Anyway, my point stands - if you go in like this you stand the chance of getting a red card. Thompson did go “in like this” (quoting me) and did get a red card.

I’m not pretending to know the rules better than you lo but you see this situation quite often at games and on TV. Slide in like this and get beaten to the ball = problem.

[lo36789]

So if you think he's out of control then you are potentially saying a red card was correct. Can see why on a split second viewing it may be seen as that.

Personally I think with benefit of all the angles we should have had a penalty, Thompson should have got a yellow, Curtis should have been sent off and Charman should have stayed on the pitch.

Frustrating but also just symptomatic that football involves 25 human beings on a pitch using their eyes and judgement.

Had our player at the back post stuck his leg out we'd have scored. Had another player chosen a different pass at a different time, don't his job in marking someone, not been dragged into a trip which didn't need to be made then the result would have also been different.

[lo36789]

Interesting debate apart from the "I know who you are" stuff.

#deleted

[Darlogramps]

Nope. Was just a comment about that specific incident. I responded to one part and then re read your post over anything and realised you had said other stuff and that one stuck out - is it meant to be a threat?.

Nope, just pointing out you have voluntarily revealed information about yourself on this board. And that means it’s easy to work out your potential motives for consistently defending referees.

I remember saying in another thread that referees generally come across as insular and paranoid. This proves my point.

“You are a referee so will biased”
“Are you threatening me?!”

All a bit silly.

I’ve never seen you be critical towards a referee on here. You’re always defending or mitigating.

[Darlogramps]

Interesting debate apart from the "I know who you are" stuff. I'd expected more grown up behaviour from a grandad who is usually so eloquent. Unless you've been the man or woman in the middle it's difficult to understand how difficult the job is. Trying to watch the whole game, keep up with play and cope with the constant nagging of certain players, why would you bother!! It's evident that lo refs at a high level and has plenty of experience in these situations and how the laws of the game should be applied. I'm not saying I agree with all his comments but find it useful to put decisions in perspective. I still think Luke's sending off was a yellow card.

There is no “ I know who you are” stuff. Stop twisting it to suit your agenda.

All I’ve said is lo has voluntarily revealed information about himself. Everyone has their own agenda and I believe his work as a referee and desire to get on in that field will bias his viewpoint. That’s why, in my view, he ALWAYS defends referees.

Even when it’s a blatant error he’s trying to mitigate (the ref might not have seen it, the assistant couldn’t see it, although the ref saw enough of an elbow that didn’t happen to send off Charman).

Indeed there is a hypocrisy in lo saying AA is unreliable because of his biases, yet use his own biases to defend the ref on Boxing Day.

[lo36789]

No. Simply explained why he may have got a particular decision incorrect.

What is your alternative theory he deliberately got it wrong? Knowing full well there is video footage which his assessment which will be based on which will prove that to be the case.

The thing you can't seem to compute is if a decision is made then that is how it has been seen. There is no mystical other reason behind it.

The referee then goes away and looks at how they can adjust what they do, where they can stand to get the decision correct the next time.

[Darlogramps]

No. Simply explained why he may have got a particular decision incorrect.

What is your alternative theory he deliberately got it wrong?

No, simply that he’s a poor referee who succumbed to unconscious bias for multiple reasons (home team pressure, making the earlier mistake with Thompson, highly charged atmosphere). I’ve stated this several times already.

I don’t buy your “He calls it as he sees it” because it assumes all sixth tier referees are competent. I’m arguing he made errors because he’s not very good.

[lo36789]

They are going to make more errors than those who are top tier agreed. In the same manner that the players at our level make many more errors than those higher up.

But there is no development or learning from get it right next time.

In the same way a player isn't coached in terms of "that was wrong, do better next time". They review what process should be gone through next time in order to get to the correct outcome.

[Darlo_Rob]

Lo it surprised me you didn't think Thommos was anything other than a red. I'm clearly in the minority, but I just thought his foot was off the ground, he went in studs showing and although the force wasn't 100 miles an hour, it looked like he went in with enough speed to warrant a red. I'd be surprised if it got overturned if Spenny appealed, just for these reasons.

[don'tbuythesun]

But that's not easy with 20 blokes running around! When you come off at the end you can be berated by one side and loved by the other but decisions are made in the moment and from a particular viewpoint. I don't think it's bias but based on experience. Try refereeing sometime and see how hard it is. Even full time premier league refs get a hard time with goal line technology, var and experienced assistants. Having said that I remember being apoplectic with rage at the referee at Port Vale in the auto windscreens trophy. My crew had to practically drag me back to my seat.

[lo36789]

I missed a blatant handball in the past. It would have made the game 4-4 was two teams fighting for playoffs and had already sent off 2 players for the home side. So talk about "evening things up"...

Player cut in from the right wing into the penalty area so I moved right as was expecting a potential foul / tackle which my AR would have been behind so I wanted side on view.

Ball was crossed and then player tried to finish it in far corner. I'm now the wrong side as a defender on the line sticks his right knee out to deflect it. Big appeals for handball.

I explain as we come off I saw his knee go up and my view was it came off the knee. Players showed me the clip in club afterwards and what I'd missed was his right hand was effectively just above his knee and it came off the hand.

In future I never went as deep on those cut ins from the right I move right but remained on edge of 18 so could get a wider angle on the next action.

I still saw what I saw, but "do something different next time" adds no value, need to gain experience to recognise those situations so that you can get the right outcome the next time.

[theoriginalfatcat]

So if you think he's out of control then you are potentially saying a red card was correct. Can see why on a split second viewing it may be seen as that.

Personally I think with benefit of all the angles we should have had a penalty, Thompson should have got a yellow, Curtis should have been sent off and Charman should have stayed on the pitch.

Frustrating but also just symptomatic that football involves 25 human beings on a pitch using their eyes and judgement.

Had our player at the back post stuck his leg out we'd have scored. Had another player chosen a different pass at a different time, don't his job in marking someone, not been dragged into a trip which didn't need to be made then the result would have also been different.

Lo, your reply suggests that I have been bitching on about the officials but the only decision I've commented on is Thompson's red card. I've remained quiet on all the other ifs and buts.

Earlier on in this thread a number of posters were of the opinion that Thompson shouldn't have been sent off, however IMO I can see why he was - so bearing in mind he WAS sent off, this is me agreeing with the referee, not criticising him.

The only other opinion I've offered up is re Joe Tait. That opinion is

[lo36789]

Lo, your reply suggests that I have been bitching on about the officials but the only decision I've commented on is Thompson's red card. I've remained quiet on all the other ifs and buts.

Na tbh I think you've illustrated a point.

Things split opinion very little in football is that definitive the all revolve around "in the opinion of the referee" and deliberately use words like "excessive force" "without due consideration for the safety of an opponent's" "genuine attempt for the ball" "unnatural position" (handball).

As you say "I can see why he was" is quite a legitimate perspective. As you add those grey areas of interpretation on top of having the perfect viewing angle to see the specifics there are going to be errors.

It's why VAR exists at the highest level as it effectively acknowledges it isn't possible to get it right. You will note a lot of VAR penalty decisions are made from the camera angle behind the goal...who has that angle.

[bga]

Lo, your reply suggests that I have been bitching on about the officials but the only decision I've commented on is Thompson's red card. I've remained quiet on all the other ifs and buts.

Na tbh I think you've illustrated a point.

Things split opinion very little in football is that definitive the all revolve around "in the opinion of the referee" and deliberately use words like "excessive force" "without due consideration for the safety of an opponent's" "genuine attempt for the ball" "unnatural position" (handball).

As you say "I can see why he was" is quite a legitimate perspective. As you add those grey areas of interpretation on top of having the perfect viewing angle to see the specifics there are going to be errors.

It's why VAR exists at the highest level as it effectively acknowledges it isn't possible to get it right. You will note a lot of VAR penalty decisions are made from the camera angle behind the goal...who has that angle.

lo on the Charman Red card. Do Darlo get to see the Ref's report of the game and the incident before deciding on any Appeal? How long do we have to Appeal?

[lo36789]

lo on the Charman Red card. Do Darlo get to see the Ref's report of the game and the incident before deciding on any Appeal? How long do we have to Appeal?

There isn't a report as such just get notification that he was sent off for violent conduct. There is no commentary or narrative attached.

[bga]

lo on the Charman Red card. Do Darlo get to see the Ref's report of the game and the incident before deciding on any Appeal? How long do we have to Appeal?

There isn't a report as such just get notification that he was sent off for violent conduct. There is no commentary or narrative attached.

Thanks. I know AA said in his immediate post match interview we would appeal. But I guess emotions were running high. The Board will have to decide if should appeal. If we did is he clear to play on Saturday?

[lo36789]

I believe so. I believe clubs before have done frivolous appeals in order to make a player available for a 'bigger' game.

[bga]

Anyone know if Curtis recovered from his horrific injury to play for Spenny yesterday?
If we dont appeal Charman sending off and Cassidy plays, will be interesting how tough Curtis is on Saturday up against him!

[LoidLucan]

lo on the Charman Red card. Do Darlo get to see the Ref's report of the game and the incident before deciding on any Appeal? How long do we have to Appeal?

There isn't a report as such just get notification that he was sent off for violent conduct. There is no commentary or narrative attached.

Thanks. I know AA said in his immediate post match interview we would appeal. But I guess emotions were running high. The Board will have to decide if should appeal. If we did is he clear to play on Saturday?

Charman can play on Saturday whether we appeal or not as bans for a red card start 7 days after the offence (I use this word loosely in this case).

[bga]

lo on the Charman Red card. Do Darlo get to see the Ref's report of the game and the incident before deciding on any Appeal? How long do we have to Appeal?

There isn't a report as such just get notification that he was sent off for violent conduct. There is no commentary or narrative attached.

Thanks. I know AA said in his immediate post match interview we would appeal. But I guess emotions were running high. The Board will have to decide if should appeal. If we did is he clear to play on Saturday?

Charman can play on Saturday whether we appeal or not as bans for a red card start 7 days after the offence (I use this word loosely in this case).

Thanks for Clarifying be an interesting selection for AA as if he plays then Spenney will no doubt try to wind him up again. But he should play of course.

[onewayup]

One thing for certain it's going to be a feisty affair. There has to be a very strong and fair referee who takes no s*** off the spennymoor players .

[bga]

lo on the Charman Red card. Do Darlo get to see the Ref's report of the game and the incident before deciding on any Appeal? How long do we have to Appeal?

There isn't a report as such just get notification that he was sent off for violent conduct. There is no commentary or narrative attached.

Thanks. I know AA said in his immediate post match interview we would appeal. But I guess emotions were running high. The Board will have to decide if should appeal. If we did is he clear to play on Saturday?

Charman can play on Saturday whether we appeal or not as bans for a red card start 7 days after the offence (I use this word loosely in this case).

Do different rules apply in Premiership? Zaha sent off for Palace on Boxing Day according to MOTD suspended as a result for yesterday's game v Norwich?