Spennymoor game

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lo36789
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Re: Spennymoor game

Post by lo36789 » Tue Dec 28, 2021 2:09 pm

Looks a missed ref for Curtis. Curtis has played it well the only angle you will see he hold is from the near side and there are no officials there. All the referee will see is bodies and if anything appears Charman rolls over Curtis. It's great that there is a still from ground level where there are no officials - doesn't exactly help with decisions.

Without Charman's reaction I'll be honest based purely on first view of the footage I'd have said handbags, grow up and get on with it as it does just look a lot of nothing. The reverse angle obviously gives the fuller picture.

Charman's reaction wise. In real time it does look like a swing of the right arm over the top and again Curtis reaction sort of sells it as that it was more of a push off. I wasn't surprised that was judged a red. On slow mo and reverse angle again I think it's yellow / aggression unfortunately life doesn't happen in slow mo. As some have said from their view in real time they expected red for Charman.

Thompson red card looks incorrect as well to be honest. He is later than Griffiths and assume from angle ref saw the leg looked straight. From the video it doesn't look particularly excessive or out of control though.

Think Jake Lawlor was possibly lucky as well mind to only get a caution his tackle from behind was not particularly clever, few I've spoken to have said they would have been going red for that one.

Their penalty is a penalty. I havn't seen our appeal to be honest, but from what I've picked up that was a missed penalty as I understand it.

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Re: Spennymoor game

Post by onewayup » Tue Dec 28, 2021 6:25 pm

Spennymoor players were at the referee all game trying to influence his decisions. In the end he wilted and gave them what they wanted. I hear Charman was sent off for an elbow offence. Well where in any footage or action in the melee was an elbow used by any player. SIMPLE ANSWER THERE WASN'T. ref must have been sleeping he certainly dreamed that one up.

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Re: Spennymoor game

Post by LoidLucan » Tue Dec 28, 2021 6:40 pm

The lino surely would have seen what the Spennymoor Strangler did. He was closer to the assault than me and I could clearly see how Charman was wrestled to the ground with an arm around his neck.

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Re: Spennymoor game

Post by shildonlad » Tue Dec 28, 2021 6:59 pm

theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Mon Dec 27, 2021 1:52 pm
Spennymoor's pumped up attitude is only going to get worse with the gruesome twosome now in charge. Personally when games get too nasty and too extreme I find them not enjoyable, the Ramsgate/Darlo match at Heritage Park springs to mind here.

I like to watch sport, not a battle. I wasn't there yesterday but I listened to DFR and the picture our commentator painted of Joe Tait was :thumbdown:
You right. Seem to fancy themselves a bit, weren’t one of them a male model or am i getting muddled up with someone else. Still seems like a odd move them two travelling so far
I may not live in the north east anymore but i still support the north east teams

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Re: Spennymoor game

Post by lo36789 » Tue Dec 28, 2021 7:31 pm

LoidLucan wrote:
Tue Dec 28, 2021 6:40 pm
The lino surely would have seen what the Spennymoor Strangler did. He was closer to the assault than me and I could clearly see how Charman was wrestled to the ground with an arm around his neck.
Yeh but he'd have been looking at the defence because the ball came back and he therefore had an offside judgement to make.

There was then a challenge for a header again on his line which he would have been looking for the contact / flick that may have come from it.

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Re: Spennymoor game

Post by onewayup » Tue Dec 28, 2021 8:01 pm

Was lo actually at the game with that comment I don't think he was .it was a clear assault on Charman.

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Re: Spennymoor game

Post by uncovered » Tue Dec 28, 2021 8:03 pm

Alun has stated that the referee said he sent Luke off as he saw him elbow the back of Curtis’ head. Didn’t happen so personally I feel we have good grounds for appeal but won’t be satisfied unless Curtis receive a retrospective red card.


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lo36789
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Re: Spennymoor game

Post by lo36789 » Tue Dec 28, 2021 8:27 pm

onewayup wrote:
Tue Dec 28, 2021 8:01 pm
Was lo actually at the game with that comment I don't think he was .it was a clear assault on Charman.
No but that is where an assistant has to look when a ball is played forward...it really isn't hard to know where they are looking it is predominantly down the line and then towards the ball.

The assistant responsible for seeing the melee on the floor was the AR in that half and it all happened the opposite side to him. You don't need to be at a game to see where on the field of play something happened when there is a camera filming it for us

There is no such thing as retrospective sending offs at any level so you will be waiting a long time for it.

The only grounds we have to appeal is to state factually with video evidence that it was aggressive act and not a violent act.
Last edited by lo36789 on Tue Dec 28, 2021 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Spennymoor game

Post by LoidLucan » Tue Dec 28, 2021 8:27 pm

I don't think anyone who saw the Spennymoor Strangler grab Charman tightly around the throat in a headlock, drag him to the ground and hold him there could possibly view it as "handbags". I simply don't believe the ref saw nothing of what Curtis did. It's much more plausible that he didn't want to take any action against Curtis because he knew he would have to send him off and he didn't want to after the questionable earlier decision re Tommo. He didn't see anything of Curtis' violent behaviour but saw very clearly that Charman elbowed him? Really? It's just nonsense.

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Re: Spennymoor game

Post by lo36789 » Tue Dec 28, 2021 8:29 pm

LoidLucan wrote:
Tue Dec 28, 2021 8:27 pm
He didn't see anything of Curtis' violent behaviour but saw very clearly that Charman elbowed him? Really? It's just nonsense.
Well clearly otherwise he'd have done it? You can clearly see on the footage that he is watching the second challenge which goes in - he then turns and at that point the players are rolled over.

Referees unfortunately cannot actually see through human flesh and skeletons no matter how hard they try. Light travels in straight lines.

Its only him that suffers if he gets it wrong you do realise that.

Also see above for reasons why interviewing officials post match would be a pointless exercise. If an official says "I saw this in real time, in the one time I got to see it from the position I was in"..."I don't believe that"...I mean how far forward does that get anyone.

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Re: Spennymoor game

Post by LoidLucan » Tue Dec 28, 2021 8:44 pm

And yet he clearly saw an elbow? That didn't actually happen of course. We had two officials on that side of the pitch while violent conduct occurs over several seconds and yet the real victim is sent off for an elbow that didn't happen. You are defending the indefensible.
Last edited by LoidLucan on Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Spennymoor game

Post by en passant » Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:12 pm

I am rather surprised myself at some of the convoluted reasoning being employed above. On the one hand we are being asked to accept that the ref and assistant are excused for not getting every decision correct as they are not super human and cannot see when Curtis is committing his foul as they were unsighted by their position. Yet despite having so little sight of what was going on the ref suddenly is able to see something that didn't happen (the elbow in the head). As for the niceties of whether Charman's shove was deemed an aggressive or violent act, I can't see that what he did reaches either threshold. It was a shove, the sort of thing that players do all the time without being reprimanded let alone getting a card. And was it really being said that if a ref gets a decision wrong that they are the only one who suffers? Go tell that to Charman and you might get to see what a truly violent act is.

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Re: Spennymoor game

Post by lo36789 » Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:14 pm

LoidLucan wrote:
Tue Dec 28, 2021 8:44 pm
And yet he clearly saw an elbow? That didn't actually happen of course. We had two officials on that side of the pitch while violent conduct occurs over several seconds and yet the real victim is sent off for an elbow that didn't happen. You are defending the indefensible.

"Its only him that suffers if he gets it wrong you do realise that."

Luke Charman might have a view on that one.
Well not really because if it is wrong the ban will be over turned. He missed 5 minutes of a football match.

I can see the swing of the arm that Charman made. How it looked from another angle I have absolutely no idea.

If what Armstrong says is correct (which is not always the most reliable source of info) then he has thought he's seen it was the elbow that was swung.

He knows the decision will be reviewed based on video footage - so will have had to have genuinely thought he'd seen something to award it.
Last edited by lo36789 on Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Spennymoor game

Post by en passant » Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:19 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:14 pm
LoidLucan wrote:
Tue Dec 28, 2021 8:44 pm
And yet he clearly saw an elbow? That didn't actually happen of course. We had two officials on that side of the pitch while violent conduct occurs over several seconds and yet the real victim is sent off for an elbow that didn't happen. You are defending the indefensible.

"Its only him that suffers if he gets it wrong you do realise that."

Luke Charman might have a view on that one.
Well not really coz if it is wrong the ban will be over turned. He missed 5 minutes of a football match.
If the people who end up reviewing this travesty are of the same ilk as yourself then there will be zero chance of that happening, because the ref is always right, even when he is clearly wrong.

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Re: Spennymoor game

Post by lo36789 » Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:24 pm

en passant wrote:
Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:19 pm
lo36789 wrote:
Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:14 pm
LoidLucan wrote:
Tue Dec 28, 2021 8:44 pm
And yet he clearly saw an elbow? That didn't actually happen of course. We had two officials on that side of the pitch while violent conduct occurs over several seconds and yet the real victim is sent off for an elbow that didn't happen. You are defending the indefensible.

"Its only him that suffers if he gets it wrong you do realise that."

Luke Charman might have a view on that one.
Well not really coz if it is wrong the ban will be over turned. He missed 5 minutes of a football match.
If the people who end up reviewing this travesty are of the same ilk as yourself then there will be zero chance of that happening, because the ref is always right, even when he is clearly wrong.
Curtis - missed red card
Charman - incorrect red card
Thompson - incorrect red card

The point is they were genuine errors based on angles and view of an incident and will be marked accordingly.

The decision on overturning a red card is an independent review process to the assessment criteria

I know that a red card appealed earlier in the season was upheld by the FA as a correct red card but referee was given major development and key decision incorrect for an incorrect red from observer and the review panel...

Only to be advised a month later at a training event that the expectation is a red card and no course to appeal report from earlier in season.

I guess point is 9 people looked at a decision 5 thought one thing 4 thought something else...8 of them had the benefit of video footage and were split 4 v 4.
Last edited by lo36789 on Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Spennymoor game

Post by LoidLucan » Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:37 pm

Everyone accepts that genuine mistakes are sometimes made but this was a right pig's ear and Charman was very badly let down. Hopefully the wrong will be righted.

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Re: Spennymoor game

Post by en passant » Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:48 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:24 pm
en passant wrote:
Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:19 pm
lo36789 wrote:
Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:14 pm
LoidLucan wrote:
Tue Dec 28, 2021 8:44 pm
And yet he clearly saw an elbow? That didn't actually happen of course. We had two officials on that side of the pitch while violent conduct occurs over several seconds and yet the real victim is sent off for an elbow that didn't happen. You are defending the indefensible.

"Its only him that suffers if he gets it wrong you do realise that."

Luke Charman might have a view on that one.
Well not really coz if it is wrong the ban will be over turned. He missed 5 minutes of a football match.
If the people who end up reviewing this travesty are of the same ilk as yourself then there will be zero chance of that happening, because the ref is always right, even when he is clearly wrong.
Curtis - missed red card
Charman - incorrect red card
Thompson - incorrect red card

The point is they were genuine errors based on angles and view of an incident and will be marked accordingly.

The decision on overturning a red card is an independent review process to the assessment criteria

I know that a red card appealed earlier in the season was upheld by the FA as a correct red card but referee was given major development and key decision incorrect for an incorrect red from observer and the review panel...

Only to be advised a month later at a training event that the expectation is a red card and no course to appeal report from earlier in season.
So, if I can understand your rather dense explanation, the ref is always right in the end. And even if he was wrong the only consequence would be that he gets extra training (hardly a major blow to his career) but the player still gets suspended. Yes, nothing to see here, all is right in the weird world of officialdom.

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Re: Spennymoor game

Post by lo36789 » Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:55 pm

No the bottom 20% get removed from the list at the end of the season. In the same way the bottom however many teams get relegated at the end of each season based on performance over the season.

And if you don't finish in top 50% for any of last 3 seasons you also get removed for clogging up the list.

And an official got a decision correct but per the scheme ended up bottom of that merit table as a result of the opinions that mattered for his side went against his decisions...

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Re: Spennymoor game

Post by en passant » Tue Dec 28, 2021 10:27 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:55 pm
No the bottom 20% get removed from the list at the end of the season. In the same way the bottom however many teams get relegated at the end of each season based on performance over the season.

And if you don't finish in top 50% for any of last 3 seasons you also get removed for clogging up the list.

And an official got a decision correct but per the scheme ended up bottom of that merit table as a result of the opinions that mattered for his side went against his decisions...
That last sentence must be in ref speak as I really find it, like much of what you have already said, impenetrable.

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Re: Spennymoor game

Post by lo36789 » Tue Dec 28, 2021 10:44 pm

Ref sent off player (score in favour of red card 1-0)
Observer said incorrect (1-1)
Club appealed red. 3 members of discipline panel said red was correct (4-1)
All key decisions go to assessment panel. 3 members of observation panel agreed with observer red was incorrect (4-4)

Referee league table goes down as incorrect major decision against referee.

A month later clip is used as part of development of officials...and the head of learning advises that in the circumstances seen the correct decision is a red card (5-4).

Referee is bottom of merit list, despite being told on the same circumstances in future he should red card the player.

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Re: Spennymoor game

Post by en passant » Tue Dec 28, 2021 11:09 pm

So that is the explanation of why only the referee can suffer from giving a red card?

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Re: Spennymoor game

Post by lo36789 » Tue Dec 28, 2021 11:21 pm

No. It was an explanation of why a referee does suffer and it isn't just all things line up to support the decision.

A red card in the 85 minute which if it's incorrect gets overturned isnt going to have any lasting impacts on anyone but the official.

The suggestion there is some sort of ploy to 'balance out' coz he wants to do Spennymoor a favour is illogical...why would he do himself over to benefit a random team.

As I've said to players before who are pushing their luck "I like me more than I like you"

Equally when Key Match Decision accuracy is at 97+% an incorrect one is pretty much the end of any thoughts of finishing in top 50%. Season can be pretty much over by the end of September if you get something wrong early doors.

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Re: Spennymoor game

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Tue Dec 28, 2021 11:50 pm

"Oh and joe Tait, what an awful attitude to football and possibly life. His approach is to try and wind up the opposition through childish comments and then try and get people sent off. Waving imaginary cards at the referee and celebrating a sending off like he has scored a goal. Terrible attitude towards the game. I love a player with a bit of a dark art but this approach, terrible."

On watching the highlights tonight I agree 100% with the above writing by uncovered. Does Tait want to be taken seriously as a semi pro footballer? Does he have any pride in himself and his on pitch performance? Does he even like football?
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Re: Spennymoor game

Post by en passant » Wed Dec 29, 2021 12:10 am

theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Tue Dec 28, 2021 11:50 pm
"Oh and joe Tait, what an awful attitude to football and possibly life. His approach is to try and wind up the opposition through childish comments and then try and get people sent off. Waving imaginary cards at the referee and celebrating a sending off like he has scored a goal. Terrible attitude towards the game. I love a player with a bit of a dark art but this approach, terrible."

On watching the highlights tonight I agree 100% with the above writing by uncovered. Does Tait want to be taken seriously as a semi pro footballer? Does he have any pride in himself and his on pitch performance? Does he even like football?
It also says something for the present management at Spenny that it seems they must support this attitude and that of Curtis as it will have unfolded right in front of them, and yet no word of censure for such behaviour. They surely had the best vantage point to see what the cameras saw yet no word from Spenny to condemn this incident. Had it been Darlington players behaving this way I would expect AA to call them out and make it clear he is ashamed of such behaviour.

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Re: Spennymoor game

Post by darlobhoy » Wed Dec 29, 2021 7:44 am

LoidLucan wrote:The lino surely would have seen what the Spennymoor Strangler did. He was closer to the assault than me and I could clearly see how Charman was wrestled to the ground with an arm around his neck.
Lino buzzed the ref to let him know what he’d seen but ref told him he didn’t need assistance

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Spennymoor game

Post by Darlogramps » Wed Dec 29, 2021 8:28 am

lo36789 wrote:No. It was an explanation of why a referee does suffer and it isn't just all things line up to support the decision.

A red card in the 85 minute which if it's incorrect gets overturned isnt going to have any lasting impacts on anyone but the official.

The suggestion there is some sort of ploy to 'balance out' coz he wants to do Spennymoor a favour is illogical...why would he do himself over to benefit a random team.

As I've said to players before who are pushing their luck "I like me more than I like you"

Equally when Key Match Decision accuracy is at 97+% an incorrect one is pretty much the end of any thoughts of finishing in top 50%. Season can be pretty much over by the end of September if you get something wrong early doors.
Except that’s total nonsense. Every word you’ve just written.
lo36789 wrote: “A red card in the 85 minute which if it's incorrect gets overturned isnt going to have any lasting impacts on anyone but the official.”
Rubbish. We’d have had our best player on the pitch for the entire duration of the game. We were playing against a tiring, mediocre Spennymoor side with 10 men.

If our best player Charman stays on, there’s every chance we win that game, certainly a much better chance than if we had 10 men. We win the game and that’s two extra points. Two extra points that could be the difference between making the play-offs or not.

Saying “he was only off for five minutes, that makes no difference”, is pretty egregious from someone involved in the game. In fact it’s pretty telling that that appears to the referees’ logic.

And that’s on the presumption it gets overturned, which cannot be guaranteed.

lo36789 wrote: “The suggestion there is some sort of ploy to 'balance out' coz he wants to do Spennymoor a favour is illogical...why would he do himself over to benefit a random team.”
It isn’t illogical. It’s pretty logical. Ref makes a bad decision (Thompson). Regrets that decision so tries to even things up. Especially if that ref is under pressure from the home team players. He’s only human so is susceptible to unconscious bias, particularly when he’s at a lower level. Weak refs will be susceptible to it.


Sadly, your comments are done with a vested interest. You work as an official in the game (you’ve said this in the past and from your previous comments I’ve worked out your identity). You’re never going to criticise referees as it might affect your own progress, so you’ll defend them.

Your own bias undermines your credibility I’m afraid.
Last edited by Darlogramps on Wed Dec 29, 2021 8:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Spennymoor game

Post by lo36789 » Wed Dec 29, 2021 8:31 am

darlobhoy wrote:
Wed Dec 29, 2021 7:44 am
LoidLucan wrote:The lino surely would have seen what the Spennymoor Strangler did. He was closer to the assault than me and I could clearly see how Charman was wrestled to the ground with an arm around his neck.
Lino buzzed the ref to let him know what he’d seen but ref told him he didn’t need assistance
Surprised at that as I've watched the whole 3 minutes and they didn't speak. In fact as soon as the red came out for Charman the assistant backed off to his position.

Assume as well as being able to see through things telekenisis is also a skill possessed but not utilised fully on the day.

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Re: Spennymoor game

Post by lo36789 » Wed Dec 29, 2021 8:34 am

Darlogramps wrote:
Wed Dec 29, 2021 8:28 am
You’re never going to criticise referees as it might affect your own progress, so you’ll defend them.

Your own bias undermines your credibility I’m afraid.
Pretty sure I said he got them wrong? I can see why he got it wrong based on position and angles.

Using stills from the opposite side of the ground saying "how did the ref not see this" well it's a pretty obvious answer. He didn't have that view.

Point is any decision made will be with the view that was what they thought happened. If it's wrong then it's wrong but there is no agenda beyond that.

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Re: Spennymoor game

Post by lo36789 » Wed Dec 29, 2021 8:36 am

Darlogramps wrote:
Wed Dec 29, 2021 8:28 am
And that’s on the presumption it gets overturned, which cannot be guaranteed.
If it was incorrect and the footage support it then it will be.

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Re: Spennymoor game

Post by lo36789 » Wed Dec 29, 2021 8:38 am

Darlogramps wrote:
Wed Dec 29, 2021 8:28 am
you’ve said this in the past and from your previous comments I’ve worked out your identity)
Well aren't you clever. Do you want a treat?
Last edited by lo36789 on Wed Dec 29, 2021 8:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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