York v Darlington

theoriginalfatcat · Post by **theoriginalfatcat** » Wed Mar 09, 2022 3:46 pm

"DARLINGTON'S four-game unbeaten run came to an end last night as they crashed to a 3-1 defeat at York City's LNER Community Stadium."

Above is the first paragraph of the Echo's match report, it doesn't take much to spot the glaringly obvious mistake

Poor journalism.

Old Git · Post by **Old Git** » Wed Mar 09, 2022 4:47 pm

This thread just illustrates how much divergence of opinion exists between fans watching the same game. Might as well have my say for what its worth.
Wheater. A game too far at this stage of his comeback and with hindsight should have been rested.
Rivers. Weak as water and ineffective.
KDS. Lively first half but tired later in the game.
Cassidy. Played pretty well and had our best 2 strikes on goal before Thompson’s late consolation. Won a few headers which came to nothing, but others around him need to anticipate this happening and gamble a bit more.
Thompson. Someone behind me said he should be sent straight back to Barnsley just before he scored. When I glanced round at the final whistle he had already left. Presumably, he missed his excellent goal.
You pays your money and you’re entitled to your opinion, but don’t expect everyone will agree with you. Part of the joy of football because we are all experts in our own minds.

Post by **D_F_C** » Wed Mar 09, 2022 5:42 pm

Thought we started the game well, got into a good shape defensively which meant we let their CB’s have the ball but the only choice was to punt it long which didn’t work for them. They improved once they made their sub. Need to see again to decide whether it’s a potential red.

They had a good 10 mins before HT, but Tommy saved well.

After half time I didn’t think we were in much trouble until their first which unfortunately looked avoidable. 2nd looked a mile offside. 3rd came from a throw in given to York when Donaldson headed it out.

Plenty of positive performances, some average ones, but lack of attacking options on the bench didn’t help.

If luck was on our side then we could have taken the lead or avoided all 3 goals, but generally we did ok

Time to get some players signed on for next season, and get the nucleus set

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eddie-rowles · Post by **eddie-rowles** » Wed Mar 09, 2022 7:56 pm

loan_star wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 09, 2022 12:34 pm

eddie-rowles wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 09, 2022 8:47 am
Agree never understand why Cassidy flicks the ball on when other forwards are out on the wings, might work with Tyrone but waste of time otherwise. First half we controlled game and had a few long range efforts. Second half the wheels came off, York changed the team and it worked, our distribution was at times very poor, Rivers couldnt tackle a rice pudding and was lost on the ball. AA took a chance on Wheater but unfortunately didnt work out thought he would be subbed at half time after injuring himself when he lost the ball. Lawlor was ok but York forwards closed his rightside down quickly as they realised he cannot kick with his left foot(ever) Thompson excellent my MOTM and taking KDS off instead of Rivers is my only moan. Surprised Wheatley didnt get sent off in his cameo
Makes me wonder if some people were at the same game. Rivers contributed far more than KDS who was poor after the first 20 mins or so. Rivers also set up the goal.
When Cassidy flicks the ball on he's relying on people being on the front foot looking for the flick ons, but just because he flicks it on doesnt mean we have a divine right to get the second ball before opposition. Also, other than the goal, Cassidy had our best two attempts on goal and was inches away with the second one.
If you want to be picky and name players who didnt perform then why has Wheater not been mentioned? He rarely won a header when challenged and looked slow. I think he was one that with hindsight should have sat the game out as the rush of games after so long out looked to have caught up with him.

I thought I mentioned Wheater? was a punt that didnt work out?
Regards Cassidy not saying we should get every second ball but 90% of his flick ons no one is near him it has been like that most of the season even with Charman or another forward. I just see no point in it better tio play to feet but don't get hung up about it

Darlogramps · Post by **Darlogramps** » Wed Mar 09, 2022 8:26 pm

Easy to try and make Wheater the scapegoat but AA will have been fully aware about his fitness. Clearly he played out necessity because Ellis and Storey weren’t fully fit (as evidenced by Ellis only playing six minutes and Storey not coming off the bench).

Don’t think AA would have started him last night had there been alternatives. Hopefully during the week and a half off we’ve now got, Ellis and Storey can get over those injuries and Wheater can have a decent rest to recover.

50 years · Post by **50 years** » Wed Mar 09, 2022 10:49 pm

Does anyone know why Rose and Lambert were not available for the York game, think they were missed, and potentially would have made a difference. I noticed that Lambert looked really cheesed off at getting subbed on Saturday.

Must admit I shouted towards AA last night, (first time I have ever done that), because you could see we needed a change things and freshen up, (I assumed Rose and Lambert were on the bench), I realised after the game that he had little option, but he also left it late to do any subs. He was also getting verbal with the linesperson again

.

Darlogramps · Post by **Darlogramps** » Wed Mar 09, 2022 11:45 pm

Lambert said on Twitter that he was ill. Not sure on Rose.

50 years · Post by **50 years** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 8:17 am

Thanks Gramps, ( I am not on Twitter or Facebook etc, and to be honest I should have looked at the web site before assuming on subs), at least Lambert has a plenty of time to get better before the next game. He is certainly an asset to the team, was a touch worried that he had spit his dummy out after being subbed.

PierremontQuaker03 · Post by **PierremontQuaker03** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 8:32 am

onewayup wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 09, 2022 3:14 pm
It was definitely off side a friend who is a York city fan was directly in line and doesn't know how the linesman allowed play to continue. He said the player was a good 5 yards offside if not more. He also said the score flattered York and a draw would have been a fairer result.

Just seen the highlights and it looks way off - the York player receives the ball with his back to goal and is almost waiting for the ball to come to him, its not like he has timed the run perfectly which I thought could have happened. He has gone early, realised that, turned round to receive the ball, he almost stopped in his tracks, before running again. A comical decision.

m62exile · Post by **m62exile** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 8:51 am

PierremontQuaker03 wrote:
onewayup wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 09, 2022 3:14 pm
It was definitely off side a friend who is a York city fan was directly in line and doesn't know how the linesman allowed play to continue. He said the player was a good 5 yards offside if not more. He also said the score flattered York and a draw would have been a fairer result.
Just seen the highlights and it looks way off - the York player receives the ball with his back to goal and is almost waiting for the ball to come to him, its not like he has timed the run perfectly which I thought could have happened. He has gone early, realised that, turned round to receive the ball, he almost stopped in his tracks, before running again. A comical decision.

We were right in line as luck would have it. I was paying attention as the ball was played and he looked I would say, five yards offside. This was the unanimous view from the local press too. York’s manager himself said it was “300 yards offside”

I’m not too sure what the assistant thinks he’s seen to be honest. I heard afterwards that he said the Griffiths was too slow to get out on the opposite side but again, with a view right across the line I don’t agree with that.

Ironically, the officials had been getting dog’s abuse off the home crowd before the incident.

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LoidLucan · Post by **LoidLucan** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 8:55 am

Just to clear up the situation with Rose. He suffered some kind of injury during the warm-up for the last home game but said he was hoping to recover in time for York. Obviously it was still troubling him.

lo36789 · Post by **lo36789** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:08 am

He look miles of but you cannot say the footage proves anything - it isn't in view.

It would be quite a rare event. Last season every single incorrect offside decision across the 3 NL divisions was an official incorrectly awarding offside when the player was on. There wasn't a single instance where it was able to be conclusively shown that a player was judged onside but was actually off.

There is a stat which shows if assistant referees never raised their flag across the top 4 tiers of football that decision accuracy would go up from about 97.something% to above 99%.

Also, forgive me for not always believing fans perspectives from the ground...

https://twitter.com/TomJebb8/status/145 ... 1rjWg&s=19

https://twitter.com/TheMeerkat96/status ... 93Ekw&s=19

Remember these are the views of this incident on 00:50 where a player was actually 3 yards in his own half never mind anything else. Always "miles offside".

https://youtu.be/FxVge-1HYsM

It absolute looks like he should be well off, and people will be adament of that based on their view at the time but thats football we will never know. Purely based on data the probability of it being incorrect is very low - but with any data set there is always the potential for outliers.

LoidLucan · Post by **LoidLucan** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:13 am

Lo, trying to defend that decision is absolutely ridiculous. He is very clearly way offside, everyone level with it thought so, most of the rest of the people in the ground thought so and the highlights back that up. It is an absolutely appalling decision to allow that to stand. I know you like to give officials the benefit of the doubt but you've picked on the wrong example here. The lino just made a dreadful mistake that cost us badly.

m62exile · Post by **m62exile** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:19 am

lo36789 wrote:He look miles of but you cannot say the footage proves anything - it isn't in view.

It would be quite a rare event. Last season every single incorrect offside decision across the 3 NL divisions was an official incorrectly awarding offside when the player was on. There wasn't a single instance where it was able to be conclusively shown that a player was judged onside but was actually off.

There is a stat which shows if assistant referees never raised their flag across the top 4 tiers of football that decision accuracy would go up from about 97.something% to above 99%.

Also, forgive me for not always believing fans perspectives from the ground...

https://twitter.com/TomJebb8/status/145 ... 1rjWg&s=19

https://twitter.com/TheMeerkat96/status ... 93Ekw&s=19

Remember these are the views of this incident on 05:40 where a player was actually 3 yards in his own half never mind anything else. Always "miles offside".

https://youtu.be/5rfiaTMC9l0

We’re never going to know conclusively so it’s a moot point. All I can say is from a position perfectly in line and in a moment where we’re concentrating on what’s happened - he appeared to be a long way offside. I’d expect a criticism of bias but the majority of people close by to us in the press box where from York and they also thought it was a long way offside. Both sets of coaches thought it was a long way offside.

But - we can argue the toss all day because the definitive proof doesn’t exist.

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Darlogramps · Post by **Darlogramps** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:32 am

I see the Bootlicker is out trying to lick the boots of authority once more. So tediously predictable. Everyone who was actually there, from multiple points of view, said it was clearly offside. Lo has seen one video and is using that to defend referees as per usual.

What he’s essentially saying is EVERYONE who was there on Tuesday is entirely unreliable and the only person who can possibly judge the offside is him. His self-delusional and opinion of himself is ridiculous.

His favourite tactic is to engage in whataboutery. “You say Darlington’s pitch is poor and needs better maintenance, but here’s a few pitches that are worse!”

“You say the decision was offside, but here’s a decision from Walsall and Everton’s U23s”. It’s all distraction techniques so don’t fall for it. He’s no better than the far right or far left trolls on social media.

Lo wasn’t there on Tuesday. The people who were there near unanimously say it was offside, from both York and Darlington fans and coaching staff alike. I know who I’m inclined to believe and it isn’t the Bootlicker.

lo36789 · Post by **lo36789** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:35 am

See my example that I've shown. Manager on the half way line said post match it was incorrect "I was stood on the halfway line and he was miles off".

Abuse for the rest of game from every single home fan on the halfway line.

Another 50 actually actually moved seats to give abuse for 30 minutes around how far offside it was and a number stayed around the entrance and required a security escort to the car park. This was a decision that wasn't really even close it was 3 yards on...

Look others will always have their views and they may very well be right it is not in my experience a particularly reliable data source and data really does show that an incorrect non offside is exceptionally rare.

It is just annoying that there isn't a camera angle really as I know the official would want to know themselves whether it was right or wrong.

Their season now is based on what the observers take was in the stadium as that is the fall back - had that been the case for me last season I'd have been removed from the list and not promoted. I had three critical decisions where the observer was adament it was miles off post match but fortunately the footage published was zoomed out enough to prove me correct and I ended up top of the list on difficult key match decisions rather than bottom of it!

al_quaker · Post by **al_quaker** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:46 am

The defence aren't moving particularly fast, the York striker isn't moving particularly fast. You can't say for sure from the angle, but it certainly looks a dodgy decision

lo36789 · Post by **lo36789** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:53 am

Defos. All crossover decisions do (ie defender stepping out as attacker is going forward). Go to 06:05 on this sort of talks to it.

https://youtu.be/_pGMRN5KN8M

I repeat, decision could have definitely been wrong, but the guidance is if it looks just offside it is usually well onside.

The ones that are actually marginal / level often look comfortably off.

al_quaker · Post by **al_quaker** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 10:03 am

They don't particularly look like they were stepping out though - live, basically everyone (including the York playr) appeared to be just kind of stood there, as if nobody expected the ball to be fired forwards so quickly. The replay seems to suggest that was pretty much the case.

LoidLucan · Post by **LoidLucan** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 10:18 am

I don't think Usain Bolt could have gone from goalside of the attacker to to where they appear on the video in the time between the punt upfield to arriving at the attacker's feet. There is such a huge gap it would have been physically impossible. We're not talking a marginal step-out here. It's beyond ridiculous to suggest this could have been the correct decision. The lino dropped a bollock.

lo36789 · Post by **lo36789** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 10:23 am

al_quaker wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 10, 2022 10:03 am
They don't particularly look like they were stepping out though - live, basically everyone (including the York playr) appeared to be just kind of stood there, as if nobody expected the ball to be fired forwards so quickly. The replay seems to suggest that was pretty much the case.

Yep - though you could say the same in this clip (00:54) except the deepest defender isn't even stood still he is running backwards when they come into view, and Andy Carroll is hardly renowned for being the quickest.

https://youtu.be/4sUOMmaM_bM

For perspective I've watched the tactical cam (wide angle) on this one and he was a whole cut of the grass (7 yards) onside when the ball was played in fact he was only about 3 yards over the halfway line, and the defender was inside the lighter green cut of grass. You can actually see him only just disappear over the halfway line before it is kicked.

Again, it could be wrong - and he looks miles beyond, but these things are very very deceptive. If it was wrong I expect it would have been a heck of a lot tighter than people will have thought at the time. Which would have been interesting to see.

I'm sure some will call it deflection, by using clips, but I'm pretty sure if I tried to substantiate with just an anecdotal view of "I just know that these things can appear really far off when they are not" without examples then it would be dismissed on that basis.

e4sby · Post by **e4sby** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 11:06 am

lo36789 wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 10, 2022 10:23 am

al_quaker wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 10, 2022 10:03 am
They don't particularly look like they were stepping out though - live, basically everyone (including the York playr) appeared to be just kind of stood there, as if nobody expected the ball to be fired forwards so quickly. The replay seems to suggest that was pretty much the case.
Yep - though you could say the same in this clip (00:54) except the deepest defender isn't even stood still he is running backwards when they come into view, and Andy Carroll is hardly renowned for being the quickest.

https://youtu.be/4sUOMmaM_bM

For perspective I've watched the tactical cam (wide angle) on this one and he was a whole cut of the grass (7 yards) onside when the ball was played in fact he was only about 3 yards over the halfway line, and the defender was inside the lighter green cut of grass. You can actually see him only just disappear over the halfway line before it is kicked.

Again, it could be wrong - and he looks miles beyond, but these things are very very deceptive. If it was wrong I expect it would have been a heck of a lot tighter than people will have thought at the time. Which would have been interesting to see.

I'm sure some will call it deflection, by using clips, but I'm pretty sure if I tried to substantiate with just an anecdotal view of "I just know that these things can appear really far off when they are not" without examples then it would be dismissed on that basis.

I'm not having any of this! He was offside, no amount of examples will convince me otherwise! The York player was actually running back towards his own goal and when the camera does focus on him he's at least 7/8 yards in behind.

I was once a qualified referee myself and the youngest in the country so have experience of 'running the line', I can call on that professional experience to confidently say he was a mile off! No bullsh1t will convince me otherwise...

lo36789 · Post by **lo36789** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 11:21 am

e4sby wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 10, 2022 11:06 am
I'm not having any of this! He was offside, no amount of examples will convince me otherwise! The York player was actually running back towards his own goal and when the camera does focus on him he's at least 7/8 yards in behind.

I was once a qualified referee myself and the youngest in the country so have experience of 'running the line', I can call on that professional experience to confidently say he was a mile off! No bullsh1t will convince me otherwise...

He's not when he comes into view 38/24s of a second after the ball is played.

He is about 2 metres over the green painted over line (the lines which cross over are 2 metres long end to end on a rugby pitch as I understand it - 1 metre either side of the green line).

And the two deepest Darlington defenders are pretty much the same distance the other side.

https://ibb.co/Z1Dbvf6

Could 2 people independently move 2 metres each in opposite directions in over 1.5 seconds - possibly. A professional footballer if they were running could cover 12/13 metres in that time.

e4sby · Post by **e4sby** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 11:26 am

lo36789 wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 10, 2022 11:21 am

e4sby wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 10, 2022 11:06 am
I'm not having any of this! He was offside, no amount of examples will convince me otherwise! The York player was actually running back towards his own goal and when the camera does focus on him he's at least 7/8 yards in behind.

I was once a qualified referee myself and the youngest in the country so have experience of 'running the line', I can call on that professional experience to confidently say he was a mile off! No bullsh1t will convince me otherwise...

He's not when he comes into view 38/24s of a second after the ball is played. He is about 2 metres over the green painted over line.

And the two deepest Darlington defenders are pretty much the same distance the other side.

https://ibb.co/Z1Dbvf6

Could 2 people independently move 2 metres in over 1.5 seconds - possibly.

Unlikely, your screenshot perfectly shows the York player facing his own goal, he would've had to stop, turn and start changing direction, the Darlo players are all facing their own goal having started to track back.

You cannot believe or argue that there is a possibility he was onside, Dermot Gallagher won't be reading this forum so you don't have to worry about upsetting him

lo36789 · Post by **lo36789** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 11:31 am

It is actually quite possible he was, but I am basing it purely on experience and the data of similar situations.

Those who were there will have their view based on what their view was at the time, and ultimately that would never be changed unless there was video evidence.

I was intrigued by the clip as was hoping it was caught as I have a feeling it would have been an interesting clip.

Darlogramps · Post by **Darlogramps** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 11:32 am

e4sby wrote:
lo36789 wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 10, 2022 11:21 am

e4sby wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 10, 2022 11:06 am
I'm not having any of this! He was offside, no amount of examples will convince me otherwise! The York player was actually running back towards his own goal and when the camera does focus on him he's at least 7/8 yards in behind.

I was once a qualified referee myself and the youngest in the country so have experience of 'running the line', I can call on that professional experience to confidently say he was a mile off! No bullsh1t will convince me otherwise...

He's not when he comes into view 38/24s of a second after the ball is played. He is about 2 metres over the green painted over line.

And the two deepest Darlington defenders are pretty much the same distance the other side.

https://ibb.co/Z1Dbvf6

Could 2 people independently move 2 metres in over 1.5 seconds - possibly.
Unlikely, your screenshot perfectly shows the York player facing his own goal, he would've had to stop, turn and start changing direction, the Darlo players are all facing their own goal having started to track back.

You cannot believe or argue that there is a possibility he was onside, Dermot Gallagher won't be reading this forum so you don't have to worry about upsetting him

Don’t argue with him. Lo won’t accept anyone criticising referees because he’s an official himself.

You could have the most conclusive evidence in the world and he’d still find a way to try and disagree with it. He craves licking the boots of authority - it’s utterly spineless and cringeworthy.

He wasn’t even there on Tuesday. Everyone who was and saw it with their own eyes said it was offside, from both Darlington and York. Yet Lo just derides them as being biased and unreliable and claims him watching a video is somehow more credible. Yet Lo won’t accept that he himself is biased in favour of referees.

He’s an absolute shambles of a human being.

lo36789 · Post by **lo36789** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 11:39 am

Darlogramps wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 10, 2022 11:32 am
He’s an absolute shambles of a human being.

Touched someone anyway

Darlogramps · Post by **Darlogramps** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 11:42 am

lo36789 wrote:
Darlogramps wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 10, 2022 11:32 am
He’s an absolute shambles of a human being.
Touched someone anyway

Not sure you want to be admitting that on a public forum.

MB86DFC · Post by **MB86DFC** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 11:48 am

lo36789 wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 10, 2022 11:21 am

e4sby wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 10, 2022 11:06 am
I'm not having any of this! He was offside, no amount of examples will convince me otherwise! The York player was actually running back towards his own goal and when the camera does focus on him he's at least 7/8 yards in behind.

I was once a qualified referee myself and the youngest in the country so have experience of 'running the line', I can call on that professional experience to confidently say he was a mile off! No bullsh1t will convince me otherwise...

He's not when he comes into view 38/24s of a second after the ball is played.

He is about 2 metres over the green painted over line (the lines which cross over are 2 metres long end to end on a rugby pitch as I understand it - 1 metre either side of the green line).

And the two deepest Darlington defenders are pretty much the same distance the other side.

https://ibb.co/Z1Dbvf6

Could 2 people independently move 2 metres each in opposite directions in over 1.5 seconds - possibly. A professional footballer if they were running could cover 12/13 metres in that time.

But they're not moving in the directions or speed you claim are they? They're not sprinting in opposite directions from a central point. The Darlo back line is slowly moving towards our goal, and the attacker is either moving towards the halfway line, or slowly backtracking towards our goal. You can tell this by his body shape. If he had made a brilliantly timed run to beat the offside trap why would he be slowly jogging backwards? For this to happen he would have had to sprint around 5 meters to pass our defense, stop, turn, and jog backwards to track the pass, all in the 1 second it takes for the attacker to make the gap to Lawlor, the deepest defender. Griffiths is on the half-turn at the top of the pitch so even an argument that he was playing the attacker on is weak.

Also, all this shite about there never being an offside goal is laughable. If the requirement of proof is concrete VAR standard camera angle evidence, especially when most teams at NL level only have one halfway line positioned camera to cover the entire game, then mistakes are never going to be conclusively shown. Just because its not captured by frame by frame in line camera doesn't mean it hasn't happened. The sort of insular protective attitude you are showing explains why the standard of refereeing at this level is piss-poor.

lo36789 · Post by **lo36789** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 12:03 pm

MB86DFC wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 10, 2022 11:48 am
Also, all this shite about there never being an offside goal is laughable. If the requirement of proof is concrete VAR standard camera angle evidence, especially when most teams at NL level only have one halfway line positioned camera to cover the entire game, then mistakes are never going to be conclusively shown. Just because its not captured by frame by frame in line camera doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

Well obviously...but that is still what the data says and that is the only conclusive evidence.

Most on NL have a tactical cam that is used for, well, as the name suggests tactical analysis and the mandatory submissions rather than media broadcast. Same with the PL u23s which the same officials operate on - in fact most PL2 have a reverse and a tactical.

I am not sure what you are proposing as the alternative that what data that does exist is ignored, what is the reason to think it is not representative of the total population? I suspect the coverage is a darn site higher than any ONS survey / sample size.

Darlo Uncovered