New stadium funding

[My opinion]

Totally agree.
The difficulty is that when coming on here to make your point you leave yourself open for a contrary opinion.
That is fine as people are entitled to disagree. But, then it can lead to an arguement with some who are determined to have the last word..(and they know who they are).
in the past I was as guilty as anyone for not giving in on my point. However, I have learned the error of my ways.

[EDJOHNS]

A very old saying,

"You may win an argument with an intelligent person but you can NEVER win against a stupid person."

[quakersfan]

As football fans we all have different views whether it’s on stadium, team selection, players, managers and most will take other fans views there are though several on this forum that think they are always right, think they know who they are.

[Darlogramps]

Loving the sanctimonious handwringing from some on here. The holier than thou attitude won’t wash.

EDJOHNS/Ted Forster is one of the most abusive people on this forum, theoriginalfatcat is always more than willing to derail threads with personal attacks and quakersfan has used this forum to stir up anti-club agendas.

The problem is too many people think merely expressing an opinion means it should be respected. If it’s a bad opinion or you’re talking nonsense, it deserves challenging, and some people simply can’t handle that.

So spare me the passive-aggressive, hypocritical “those people know who they are” nonsense. Most of those going on like that are no different to me in how they behave, if not worse because they’re trying to pretend they’re better behaved than they actually are.

If you express an opinion, don’t be surprised if gets challenged. Defend your argument, don’t run away crying.

[don'tbuythesun]

An interesting response with a fair number of people agreeing with me. No-ones running away or crying, we're just fed up of the over the top insults, lack of respect for others views and arrogant I'm always right attitude. I rarely bother posting on threads you're on as I know you're going to spoil it. Sadly you often post sensible arguments, it's the hostility and lack of respect that's disappointing.

[theoriginalfatcat]

Yes, I'll second the above, and also go back to my original point. If people slowly drift away from this board because of a hostile/childish atmosphere - then it's bad for this board (Virtual Feethams) and ultimately bad for the club, our club, DFC.

[Darlogramps]

An interesting response with a fair number of people agreeing with me. No-ones running away or crying, we're just fed up of the over the top insults, lack of respect for others views and arrogant I'm always right attitude. I rarely bother posting on threads you're on as I know you're going to spoil it. Sadly you often post sensible arguments, it's the hostility and lack of respect that's disappointing.

Again, you seem to be insisting that everyone deserves “respect” regardless of what they post. You’ve said it twice there that other people’s views deserve “respect”.

No, they don’t. Not if they don’t make sense, or are based on no evidence. Respect is earned, it isn’t automatic.

This assumption that because someone has stated an opinion it deserves to be respected is ludicrous. Usually I simply start off by challenging an opinion. It’s amazing how many times when I challenge an opinion, people will just attack me (looking at you Yarblockos and Old Git), than actually defend it and elaborate on it.

It’s as if people are scared or incapable of proper debate so find it easier to launch personal attacks instead. I rarely do insults, except when people are going after me. As for “thinking I’m always right”, well I’m not going to post an opinion I think is wrong am I? Why would anyone post something they believe to be wrong? Bit of a daft point that.

And as I’ve said, the likes of yourself and theoriginalfatcat are more than happy to de-rail threads by launching personal attacks on my character (you’re literally doing it now). That’s why I find your holier-than-thou acts so hilarious and hypocritical. If you don’t post on here as much because of me, then I’m happy with that. One less hypocrite on the board.

People like yourself and theoriginalfatcat are more interested in cheap point-scoring and settling scores than you are in sensible debate. That’s what this little witch-hunt is all about.

And stop this ludicrous insistence that all opinions are equal and deserve respect. They really don’t. I’ll give “respect” when people post opinions that are reasonable and based on fact. Or at least if they’re prepared to defend themselves when challenged without getting upset.

But I’m not going to change my style or stop challenging people just because some people don’t like it. If people don’t like it, I’m doing something right.

[lo36789]

I guess it depends why people post opinions on an internet messageboard. Most feelings here will be gut instinct, mostly driven by emotion, and a light perspective on things rather than doing deep and detailed research.

Football and the support of Darlington is meant to be light relief, a hobby, and the views around it are just a perspective rather than a peer reviewed theory.

I don't think the purpose of the forum is definitive proof of a theory, it's just to share opinions and mostly it is a case of seeing if people you don't necessarily speak to feel the same as you.

[DavidCurriesMullet]

Rumours continue to gather apace that we will end up at Skerningham. If this is true, how do people feel about it as a new home?

Disclaimer - I have no concrete evidence of the above, and reserve the right to be totally incorrect. This is internet forum speculation, based on discussions with individuals with no direct ties to the club, but some relations to the Planning/Surveying/Construction industry. As far as I know this is an educated guess on their behalf and not based on any "insider" knowledge. I trust this will not bring about the collapse of any ongoing discussions.

[DavidCurriesMullet]

Rumours continue to gather apace that we will end up at Skerningham. If this is true, how do people feel about it as a new home?

Disclaimer - I have no concrete evidence of the above, and reserve the right to be totally incorrect. This is internet forum speculation, based on discussions with individuals with no direct ties to the club, but some relations to the Planning/Surveying/Construction industry. As far as I know this is an educated guess on their behalf and not based on any "insider" knowledge. I trust this will not bring about the collapse of any ongoing discussions.

[theoriginalfatcat]

Rumours continue to gather apace that we will end up at Skerningham. If this is true, how do people feel about it as a new home?

Disclaimer - I have no concrete evidence of the above, and reserve the right to be totally incorrect. This is internet forum speculation, based on discussions with individuals with no direct ties to the club, but some relations to the Planning/Surveying/Construction industry. As far as I know this is an educated guess on their behalf and not based on any "insider" knowledge. I trust this will not bring about the collapse of any ongoing discussions.

Yes, it's an interesting theory/rumour. Oldgit originally posted it up on this very thread. It's interesting to me because I don't live in Darlo and don't tend to pick up "the word on the street"

So I've looked online at the village plans and situation, and personally feel there could be something in this, it seems to make sense. I've also looked to see where this is geographically. I'm not sure how I feel about it tbh - it depends what's involved and how it pans out but two initial thoughts spring to mind.

Firstly, I quite like the location of Blackwell Meadows, so personally I would find it appealing to have our own pitch on this site.

Secondly, it does seem quite bizarre that another brand new stadium is possibly being built in Darlington for the football club, when not far away there is a stadium that is already there. Yes, I'm talking about The Arena!! I don't like the place, I never did, but it appears to be under used and unloved and we are looking for a home. I can't remember how much Mowden paid for it now but I seem to remember it was 2 million, but how much is this proposed new development going to cost? Is it sensible for the council to allow planning on yet another stadium? What will become of The Arena?

As I say, I'm not advocating a return to our previous unhappy home but it seems somewhat strange to me that two biggish stadiums could be active relatively close together, in a place the size of Darlington.

Disclaimer - these are just my personal opinions, kind of like I'm having a friendly natter in a pub.

[onewayup]

I do believe that the arena is in bad condition the metal work frame rusting from the inside out,
The maintenance costs were not kept upto standard ,which inevitably leads to problems resulting in the state people see when driving past the rotting structure, as for us going back there no thank you, we couldn't afford to put it back into the condition required, or able to afford the up keep required. Just my opinion like.

[Fatty eats roadkill]

Skerningham can foook right off.
The club would get lynched building on there considering half the town are up in arms at the Tory council allowing it to be built on in the first place.

[shildonlad]

Rumours continue to gather apace that we will end up at Skerningham. If this is true, how do people feel about it as a new home?

Disclaimer - I have no concrete evidence of the above, and reserve the right to be totally incorrect. This is internet forum speculation, based on discussions with individuals with no direct ties to the club, but some relations to the Planning/Surveying/Construction industry. As far as I know this is an educated guess on their behalf and not based on any "insider" knowledge. I trust this will not bring about the collapse of any ongoing discussions.

Yes, it's an interesting theory/rumour. Oldgit originally posted it up on this very thread. It's interesting to me because I don't live in Darlo and don't tend to pick up "the word on the street"

So I've looked online at the village plans and situation, and personally feel there could be something in this, it seems to make sense. I've also looked to see where this is geographically. I'm not sure how I feel about it tbh - it depends what's involved and how it pans out but two initial thoughts spring to mind.

Firstly, I quite like the location of Blackwell Meadows, so personally I would find it appealing to have our own pitch on this site.

Secondly, it does seem quite bizarre that another brand new stadium is possibly being built in Darlington for the football club, when not far away there is a stadium that is already there. Yes, I'm talking about The Arena!! I don't like the place, I never did, but it appears to be under used and unloved and we are looking for a home. I can't remember how much Mowden paid for it now but I seem to remember it was 2 million, but how much is this proposed new development going to cost? Is it sensible for the council to allow planning on yet another stadium? What will become of The Arena?

As I say, I'm not advocating a return to our previous unhappy home but it seems somewhat strange to me that two biggish stadiums could be active relatively close together, in a place the size of Darlington.

Disclaimer - these are just my personal opinions, kind of like I'm having a friendly natter in a pub.

I wonder if theres ever been a proposal to demolish the arena bar the pitch and build a small 10k or less stadium in its place, something like york citys

[Darlobill]

I’m sure I read it’s £5m for a 5k seated stadium, my main question would be how can we finance it. Will there be a separate development company like they have at the Arena and DFC will have a long licence to play there. Lots of questions I’m sure.

[H1987]

The problem with the Arena is that it would cost a fortune to demolish, and it would cost a fortune to maintain. It's just a millstone.

In a fantasy world, knocking it all down but the main stand, and then sticking a couple of tinsheds at each end of it would be an ideal solution. It would work for us and for Mowden Park and be far more financially realistic, as well as a fundamentally less s*** matchday experience. It just doesn't work in practice though. It would cost more to do that than just building something new. I'm afraid at some point it will be a problem for the council to deal with. Now if the council decided they wanted to do that to save it rather than just condemn it down the line, that would be an option, albeit an expensive one. In reality, the council doesn't work like that and they'll consider it a problem for the owners to deal with. My not terribly bold prediction would be that, left unaddressed, that stadium will eventually kill Mowden Park RFC. It will then once again become the councils problem and end up being demolished at the councils expense sometime in the not too distant future.

Skerningham is an odd one, development wise. I'd be concerned about the traffic going up there too, and the NIMBYism its likely to face. I think that's going to happen absolutely anywhere other than an existing sports hub though, tbh. I'd rate it as more likely than Faverdale though.

[quaker4life]

I wonder if theres ever been a proposal to demolish the arena bar the pitch and build a small 10k or less stadium in its place, something like york citys

There was rumours circulating during the Houghton era that the North Stand was to be demolished and turned into a permanent stage area for concerts, also there was talk of knocking the corners out and building office space into them but as I said to someone at the time if the bulldozers arrived it would be to tear the whole thing down.

Our time at the Arena ended a decade ago and although some people insist on continuously dragging it up it would not be a viable long term solution, had this been the case we'd have already have been there and we would not be scouting locations for another ground. The most frequently mentioned location is next to amazon (which is apparently earmarked for further industrial development) I heard it mentioned again yesterday at Gateshead but it was clear the bloke who said it clearly didn't really know himself.

Speculating isn't a crime but it's futile at this stage, we'll have to sit tight and see what comes out next month (if anything) the one thing we can be assured of things are happening behind the scenes.

[EDJOHNS]

I don't, and never have got this, "the arena is a black hole that costs a fortune to upkeep".
I am not saying let's go back as I did not particularly like the place. ( I don't like ANY modern "fishbowl" ground), but the FACT is that after it was built the "upkeep" for the cheap metal used was going to run at between 75,000 and 100,000 quid every 10 years, ie, 7500-10,000 per year. Not an insurmountable figure surely.
Further, from what I saw on the trips I had to games it seemed to me to be totally underutilised with much lost income because,(so it was said), rent figures were high.
Surely, if someone had gone in and spoken to the council as the rugby club did they may have got the council onside instead of them refusing us permission to do things the rugby club eventually did.
I know this is too late now, but things like a park and ride bus service could/should have been a money earner.
Like the place or not, (MY OPINION), it is sad to see the state it was in yesterday when I drove past.

The biggest point that worries me is NOT the time it takes to sort the exact place for the new ground, it is the simple FACT that, since we knew the drain was going to be an ongoing and virtually insurmountable problem, we should have been fundraising to get a pot started for the specific reason of building the new place.
I know we can apply for all sorts of grants, but we will still have a large cash fund to find to fill the gaps in grants.

[shildonlad]

A re-built darlington arena is surely far cheaper than a new ground on fields or waste ground. Pitch could remain and utilities will be in place. All would be needed is tin sheds behind each goal, main stand and flat area which could be built on in future, the spare land could be used for car parking. Arena aint a bad location, ive walked it from station in 30 mins, nice flat walk. If gateshead ever had money for a new ground they would also have issues with nimbys. The IS does not have that issue and it aint in a bad location, just too big

[shildonlad]

I don't, and never have got this, "the arena is a black hole that costs a fortune to upkeep".
I am not saying let's go back as I did not particularly like the place. ( I don't like ANY modern "fishbowl" ground), but the FACT is that after it was built the "upkeep" for the cheap metal used was going to run at between 75,000 and 100,000 quid every 10 years, ie, 7500-10,000 per year. Not an insurmountable figure surely.
Further, from what I saw on the trips I had to games it seemed to me to be totally underutilised with much lost income because,(so it was said), rent figures were high.
Surely, if someone had gone in and spoken to the council as the rugby club did they may have got the council onside instead of them refusing us permission to do things the rugby club eventually did.
I know this is too late now, but things like a park and ride bus service could/should have been a money earner.
Like the place or not, (MY OPINION), it is sad to see the state it was in yesterday when I drove past.

The biggest point that worries me is NOT the time it takes to sort the exact place for the new ground, it is the simple FACT that, since we knew the drain was going to be an ongoing and virtually insurmountable problem, we should have been fundraising to get a pot started for the specific reason of building the new place.
I know we can apply for all sorts of grants, but we will still have a large cash fund to find to fill the gaps in grants.

Its like me renting my place, how can you save up for somewhere of your own whilst paying rent. Double edged sword

[EDJOHNS]

I don't, and never have got this, "the arena is a black hole that costs a fortune to upkeep".
I am not saying let's go back as I did not particularly like the place. ( I don't like ANY modern "fishbowl" ground), but the FACT is that after it was built the "upkeep" for the cheap metal used was going to run at between 75,000 and 100,000 quid every 10 years, ie, 7500-10,000 per year. Not an insurmountable figure surely.
Further, from what I saw on the trips I had to games it seemed to me to be totally underutilised with much lost income because,(so it was said), rent figures were high.
Surely, if someone had gone in and spoken to the council as the rugby club did they may have got the council onside instead of them refusing us permission to do things the rugby club eventually did.
I know this is too late now, but things like a park and ride bus service could/should have been a money earner.
Like the place or not, (MY OPINION), it is sad to see the state it was in yesterday when I drove past.

The biggest point that worries me is NOT the time it takes to sort the exact place for the new ground, it is the simple FACT that, since we knew the drain was going to be an ongoing and virtually insurmountable problem, we should have been fundraising to get a pot started for the specific reason of building the new place.
I know we can apply for all sorts of grants, but we will still have a large cash fund to find to fill the gaps in grants.

Its like me renting my place, how can you save up for somewhere of your own whilst paying rent. Double edged sword

I agree with you, BUT, we are going to have to raise money at some point. Surely it would have made sense to have as long as possible, ie, start fundraising at least 2-3 years ago to give the amount needed the longest time possible to be reached?
We raise 100,000 plus every year for BTB. Even if we only managed half that a year we could have had somewhere in the region of a quarter of a mil in the bank by now.

[Old Git]

Just an apology from me. I should know better than to get embroiled in meaningless arguments with you know who, but sometimes the arrogance and ignorance of that man is really irritating. I will endeavour to avoid doing this in future, as I have no wish to alienate others from using this message board.
Will stand by for another aggressive rant from him for posting this. Oh well, at least it will be a test of my resolve to ignore him in future. Wish me luck

[lo36789]

it is the simple FACT that, since we knew the drain was going to be an ongoing and virtually insurmountable problem, we should have been fundraising to get a pot started for the specific reason of building the new place.

It don't know if it was though. A purpose built stand replacing the club house would actually resolve most issues with the drain. Obviously it transpire it isn't something the rugby club would be supportive of, and it is their ground at the end of the day.

Not being supportive isn't necessarily from the stance of just blocking it out of spite. A theoretical replacement would need to be financed, the rugby club don't have spare cash or a need for it and if we finance it then it generates resentment as you would get the "why should we pay for it, we are just a cash cow" army out in force.

But back to the point, the pipe wasn't, from the outset at least, insurmountable nor an immediate concern really.

When you are talking about raising £5m an extra year or two of fundraising really won't make that much difference - especially without a tangible goal. If we had started raising for a new ground without a plan we'd have got to £20k after 3 months and then it wouldn't have moved since then.

[Lawman3]

I’m sure I read it’s £5m for a 5k seated stadium, my main question would be how can we finance it. Will there be a separate development company like they have at the Arena and DFC will have a long licence to play there. Lots of questions I’m sure.

Will it be all seated? Would a mix of seating and terracing not be more palatable to the fans (and probably cheaper)? We don't need an all-seater stadium at our level, surely?

[quaker4life]

A re-built darlington arena is surely far cheaper than a new ground on fields or waste ground. Pitch could remain and utilities will be in place. All would be needed is tin sheds behind each goal, main stand and flat area which could be built on in future, the spare land could be used for car parking. Arena aint a bad location, ive walked it from station in 30 mins, nice flat walk. If gateshead ever had money for a new ground they would also have issues with nimbys. The IS does not have that issue and it aint in a bad location, just too big

You do know we don't own the Arena? And any proposed modifications would have to go through DMP?

You need to start expanding your thinking beyond the Arena, it's in the past and needs to be left there.

[MB86DFC]

I don't, and never have got this, "the arena is a black hole that costs a fortune to upkeep".
I am not saying let's go back as I did not particularly like the place. ( I don't like ANY modern "fishbowl" ground), but the FACT is that after it was built the "upkeep" for the cheap metal used was going to run at between 75,000 and 100,000 quid every 10 years, ie, 7500-10,000 per year. Not an insurmountable figure surely.
Further, from what I saw on the trips I had to games it seemed to me to be totally underutilised with much lost income because,(so it was said), rent figures were high.
Surely, if someone had gone in and spoken to the council as the rugby club did they may have got the council onside instead of them refusing us permission to do things the rugby club eventually did.
I know this is too late now, but things like a park and ride bus service could/should have been a money earner.
Like the place or not, (MY OPINION), it is sad to see the state it was in yesterday when I drove past.

The biggest point that worries me is NOT the time it takes to sort the exact place for the new ground, it is the simple FACT that, since we knew the drain was going to be an ongoing and virtually insurmountable problem, we should have been fundraising to get a pot started for the specific reason of building the new place.
I know we can apply for all sorts of grants, but we will still have a large cash fund to find to fill the gaps in grants.

Its like me renting my place, how can you save up for somewhere of your own whilst paying rent. Double edged sword

DJ literally explained how it will work at the online fans forum. Finance will be raised to fund it on a very long term payment plan, say 50 years. DJ said he has been in discussion with the financiers about it. We don’t have to raise the money up front to pay for it, the money is borrowed and paid back with interest. The development as a whole will need to earn enough to play the capital, plus the interest, plus any legacy rent on Blackwell meadows, AND create a surplus for the team to make it beneficial. If it can’t do that then we may as well stay put as there is no way we can fund a stadium upfront unless one of us wins the Euromillions.

[onewayup]

The year we left the arena the maintenance cost was 172,000 for the year. Fact so forget about the bloody arena. It's all in certain people's heads.
It ain't happening ever.

[Darlobill]

I don't, and never have got this, "the arena is a black hole that costs a fortune to upkeep".
I am not saying let's go back as I did not particularly like the place. ( I don't like ANY modern "fishbowl" ground), but the FACT is that after it was built the "upkeep" for the cheap metal used was going to run at between 75,000 and 100,000 quid every 10 years, ie, 7500-10,000 per year. Not an insurmountable figure surely.
Further, from what I saw on the trips I had to games it seemed to me to be totally underutilised with much lost income because,(so it was said), rent figures were high.
Surely, if someone had gone in and spoken to the council as the rugby club did they may have got the council onside instead of them refusing us permission to do things the rugby club eventually did.
I know this is too late now, but things like a park and ride bus service could/should have been a money earner.
Like the place or not, (MY OPINION), it is sad to see the state it was in yesterday when I drove past.

The biggest point that worries me is NOT the time it takes to sort the exact place for the new ground, it is the simple FACT that, since we knew the drain was going to be an ongoing and virtually insurmountable problem, we should have been fundraising to get a pot started for the specific reason of building the new place.
I know we can apply for all sorts of grants, but we will still have a large cash fund to find to fill the gaps in grants.

Its like me renting my place, how can you save up for somewhere of your own whilst paying rent. Double edged sword

DJ literally explained how it will work at the online fans forum. Finance will be raised to fund it on a very long term payment plan, say 50 years. DJ said he has been in discussion with the financiers about it. We don’t have to raise the money up front to pay for it, the money is borrowed and paid back with interest. The development as a whole will need to earn enough to play the capital, plus the interest, plus any legacy rent on Blackwell meadows, AND create a surplus for the team to make it beneficial. If it can’t do that then we may as well stay put as there is no way we can fund a stadium upfront unless one of us wins the Euromillions.

I understand that but whose name will the long term finance be in, guarantors etc lots of questions to be asked to be sure

[lo36789]

The football club's, as a legal entity. Given the sums a guarantor will be pointless the lending is on the basis of future revenues rather than personal wealth.

To the next poster - yes I am sure that the asset ie the ground will be a security taken on the debt.

[shildonlad]

I don't, and never have got this, "the arena is a black hole that costs a fortune to upkeep".
I am not saying let's go back as I did not particularly like the place. ( I don't like ANY modern "fishbowl" ground), but the FACT is that after it was built the "upkeep" for the cheap metal used was going to run at between 75,000 and 100,000 quid every 10 years, ie, 7500-10,000 per year. Not an insurmountable figure surely.
Further, from what I saw on the trips I had to games it seemed to me to be totally underutilised with much lost income because,(so it was said), rent figures were high.
Surely, if someone had gone in and spoken to the council as the rugby club did they may have got the council onside instead of them refusing us permission to do things the rugby club eventually did.
I know this is too late now, but things like a park and ride bus service could/should have been a money earner.
Like the place or not, (MY OPINION), it is sad to see the state it was in yesterday when I drove past.

The biggest point that worries me is NOT the time it takes to sort the exact place for the new ground, it is the simple FACT that, since we knew the drain was going to be an ongoing and virtually insurmountable problem, we should have been fundraising to get a pot started for the specific reason of building the new place.
I know we can apply for all sorts of grants, but we will still have a large cash fund to find to fill the gaps in grants.

Its like me renting my place, how can you save up for somewhere of your own whilst paying rent. Double edged sword

DJ literally explained how it will work at the online fans forum. Finance will be raised to fund it on a very long term payment plan, say 50 years. DJ said he has been in discussion with the financiers about it. We don’t have to raise the money up front to pay for it, the money is borrowed and paid back with interest. The development as a whole will need to earn enough to play the capital, plus the interest, plus any legacy rent on Blackwell meadows, AND create a surplus for the team to make it beneficial. If it can’t do that then we may as well stay put as there is no way we can fund a stadium upfront unless one of us wins the Euromillions.

Its still classed as a debt and like a mortgage surely a deposit would be needed. If payments were not met then that financier would have a hold on the ground im sure. Unless it was a sort of lease agreement, similar to what large retailers do, where they operate premises, maintain and upgrade them but dont own them