New stadium funding

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Darlobill
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New stadium funding

Post by Darlobill » Wed Mar 09, 2022 10:13 pm

Without any outside funding how do the owners who pay their annual subs which in my eyes is very low see subs from this year moving to £100 with hospitality vouchers as an incentive this would make a huge difference to funding a new stadium rather than BTB which tbh honest hasn’t set the world alight on the field these last two seasons. Discuss
Last edited by Darlobill on Wed Mar 09, 2022 10:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

JE93
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Re: New stadium funding

Post by JE93 » Wed Mar 09, 2022 10:44 pm

Darlobill wrote:
Wed Mar 09, 2022 10:13 pm
Without any outside funding how do the owners who pay their annual subs which in my eyes is very low see subs from this year moving to £100 with hospitality vouchers as an incentive this would make a huge difference to funding a new stadium rather than BTB which tbh honest hasn’t set the world alight these last two seasons. Discuss
The realistic point is there isn't a way of funding this without outside funding (loans, grants etc) supplementing potential additional fund raising by fans. Its like trying to buy a house without a mortgage. Considering FCUM's cost them c.£7 million not 10 years ago and inflation will have kicked things on since then, we could well need £10+ million to get something suitable.

I don't really see how BTB is relevant. Boost the Budget is for operational expenditure, it is there to boost the playing budget each season, in part to make up for the cash impact of selling the 5 year season tickets and to provide us with an improved playing budget to support on pitch performance, crowd sourced and provided on a year by year basis to de-risk it.

I'd be against increasing the subs to be part of the CIC if I'm honest, ownership of the club through being a member of the CIC should be as accessible as possible to as many people as possible. There are c.1000 paying CIC members at £25 per year = £25,000 per annum. By raising the cost during a cost of living crisis you might well lose 50% of members. So 500 members paying £100 = £50,000 still not going to make a massive difference in ground funding and you've just pushed 50% away from one of our clubs USP's. Fan ownership.

There are plenty of other ways to put money into the club without raising CIC subs; setting up an additional ground fund to channel funds into, further fund raising activities, a limited share issue in the Football Club to allow fans to buy shares to name a very few. But in reality any change in CIC subs and the fund raising above will raise pocket change in terms of what will actually be required to bring it to fruition.

Darlobill
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Re: New stadium funding

Post by Darlobill » Wed Mar 09, 2022 10:50 pm

Agree with a lot of your points but if the club had a plan to build a new stadium at BM or elsewhere I feels there is the desire to succeed the longer this goes on there will be less people with a small amount of annual money to see this come to fruition- so let’s see a plan.

Old Git
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Re: New stadium funding

Post by Old Git » Wed Mar 09, 2022 10:51 pm

Darlobill wrote:
Wed Mar 09, 2022 10:13 pm
Without any outside funding how do the owners who pay their annual subs which in my eyes is very low see subs from this year moving to £100 with hospitality vouchers as an incentive this would make a huge difference to funding a new stadium rather than BTB which tbh honest hasn’t set the world alight these last two seasons. Discuss
Not a chance the fans alone can finance a new stadium. Have to disagree with you about BTB. In my opinion around 130k is a magnificent achievement from our fans and it is a bit insulting to say it hasn’t set the world alight.
Just look at the 50/50 draw at York last night. I think it was just over £300 from 3,000 fans. We regularly raise £1300 from half that attendance. Our supporters are fantastic at putting their hands in their pockets to help the club compete at NLN level.
However, financing a new stadium is something else. We would need the help of the council with finding a suitable site and outside investment to bring it to reality. We can only hope that somehow DJ can use his considerable skills and experience to bring this about.

lo36789
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Re: New stadium funding

Post by lo36789 » Thu Mar 10, 2022 5:28 am

And there may be costs involved. FC United suffered relegation as a result of their ground given the cut in their playing budget to repay the finance.

If someone is found who is willing to develop a site and invest for a return they will ultimately charge the market rate for rent as they will be entitled to a return - so our costs could easily go up quite substantially to support this.

They would want to have it occupied 7 days a week in order so we may end up in a better ground but we would just be one of many tenants. This is the same way that York effectively hire out from the York Stadium Management Company but anyone can hire from then effectively.

That said we could take some of that risk and seek to effectively sub-let - so our costs go up but we can generate our own returns upon it - but the risk is ours if we don't.

The expected revenue generated on a 3G pitch is £200k per year over it's 10 year life (initial £600kish outlay). A guaranteed 90k adjusted for (inflation) would give a 50% ROI on that element of the ground - but with lower risk / cost to operate.

If we can operate in a cost effective manner there is £110k (minus our pitch hire time averaging 3 hours per week of 70 of possible usage) of revenue we could generate. That is why it is so critical we are located in an area where there is a lack of these facilities to make sure that return would be maximised - on that basis unlikely to be anywhere near existing hubs as they already provide similar facilities to that local community.

If you can then integrate local amenities within units in the structure of the stands you could potentially cover many needs as well and guarantee a demand - so if you can find an area that lacks local shops, pubs, restaurants, gym etc. relative to the population living there

Guess the comparison is the amenities linked to the Faverdale development eg. the school / pub and shops if there is a proper plan it can be integrated together and ultimately means the cost is split between the parts.

If this is part of planned development then it can all be housed in one structure which just happens to have football stands over the top of them.

spen666
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Re: New stadium funding

Post by spen666 » Thu Mar 10, 2022 7:54 am

In the current financial climate, many people may already struggle to renew this year, with rising energy & fuel prices, NI increases, inflation.

To hike up the "ownership" cost by so much would be a struggle for many people & would run risk of significantly reducing the membership.

Whether it is a good idea or not, the timing is probably not right at present.

lo36789
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Re: New stadium funding

Post by lo36789 » Thu Mar 10, 2022 8:10 am

a) Us self funding our own ground is a pipe dream
b) The impact of an increase wouldn't even get us close
c) The DFCSG purpose is to increase community ownership not sure a hike is conducive to that

Maurice_Peddelty
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Re: New stadium funding

Post by Maurice_Peddelty » Thu Mar 10, 2022 8:15 am

JE93 wrote:
Wed Mar 09, 2022 10:44 pm
Darlobill wrote:
Wed Mar 09, 2022 10:13 pm
Without any outside funding how do the owners who pay their annual subs which in my eyes is very low see subs from this year moving to £100 with hospitality vouchers as an incentive this would make a huge difference to funding a new stadium rather than BTB which tbh honest hasn’t set the world alight these last two seasons. Discuss
I'd be against increasing the subs to be part of the CIC if I'm honest, ownership of the club through being a member of the CIC should be as accessible as possible to as many people as possible. There are c.1000 paying CIC members at £25 per year = £25,000 per annum. By raising the cost during a cost of living crisis you might well lose 50% of members. So 500 members paying £100 = £50,000 still not going to make a massive difference in ground funding and you've just pushed 50% away from one of our clubs USP's. Fan ownership.

There are plenty of other ways to put money into the club without raising CIC subs; setting up an additional ground fund to channel funds into, further fund raising activities, a limited share issue in the Football Club to allow fans to buy shares to name a very few. But in reality any change in CIC subs and the fund raising above will raise pocket change in terms of what will actually be required to bring it to fruition.
If you're going to discuss fundamentals, please get up to speed. The CIC disappeared in 2015.

JE93
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Re: New stadium funding

Post by JE93 » Thu Mar 10, 2022 8:45 am

Maurice_Peddelty wrote:
Thu Mar 10, 2022 8:15 am
JE93 wrote:
Wed Mar 09, 2022 10:44 pm
Darlobill wrote:
Wed Mar 09, 2022 10:13 pm
Without any outside funding how do the owners who pay their annual subs which in my eyes is very low see subs from this year moving to £100 with hospitality vouchers as an incentive this would make a huge difference to funding a new stadium rather than BTB which tbh honest hasn’t set the world alight these last two seasons. Discuss
I'd be against increasing the subs to be part of the CIC if I'm honest, ownership of the club through being a member of the CIC should be as accessible as possible to as many people as possible. There are c.1000 paying CIC members at £25 per year = £25,000 per annum. By raising the cost during a cost of living crisis you might well lose 50% of members. So 500 members paying £100 = £50,000 still not going to make a massive difference in ground funding and you've just pushed 50% away from one of our clubs USP's. Fan ownership.

There are plenty of other ways to put money into the club without raising CIC subs; setting up an additional ground fund to channel funds into, further fund raising activities, a limited share issue in the Football Club to allow fans to buy shares to name a very few. But in reality any change in CIC subs and the fund raising above will raise pocket change in terms of what will actually be required to bring it to fruition.
If you're going to discuss fundamentals, please get up to speed. The CIC disappeared in 2015.
You are of course correct, the CIC was replaced by a community benefits society which changes the square root of nothing with regards to the funding of a new ground. All other points stand; funding of a new ground will be next to impossible without external finance, my view is that membership should be as accessible as possible and so raising subs is counter productive especially as it would have so little impact on the actual funds required and there are other means by which to provide fan raised funding specifically for a new ground. Perhaps we can use some of that pedantry to pay for a new ground, we certainly seem to have a lot of it.

Maurice_Peddelty
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Re: New stadium funding

Post by Maurice_Peddelty » Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:48 am

Agreed, JE39.

Darlobill
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Re: New stadium funding

Post by Darlobill » Thu Mar 10, 2022 11:52 am

Looks like there’s no appetite for increased subs. Blackwell it is then, great if the RG could be bought out.

bigdavethemaddog
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Re: New stadium funding

Post by bigdavethemaddog » Thu Mar 10, 2022 11:55 am

spen666 wrote:
Thu Mar 10, 2022 7:54 am
In the current financial climate, many people may already struggle to renew this year, with rising energy & fuel prices, NI increases, inflation.

To hike up the "ownership" cost by so much would be a struggle for many people & would run risk of significantly reducing the membership.

Whether it is a good idea or not, the timing is probably not right at present.
a lot of clubs need to be careful with season ticket prices this summer as i can see a lot of fans been unable to afford further increases.

al_quaker
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Re: New stadium funding

Post by al_quaker » Thu Mar 10, 2022 12:16 pm

Darlobill wrote:
Thu Mar 10, 2022 11:52 am
Looks like there’s no appetite for increased subs. Blackwell it is then, great if the RG could be bought out.
Increased subs would have negligible impact on our ability to fund a new stadium. We've got circa 1000 paying £25 a year = £25,000 pa. If you raise that to £100 a year, at best you get £100,000 pa, so 75k a year more. And that's if you assume a) there's no drop off in membership at the higher price and b) boost the budget stays the same, so all of that extra could go towards the ground rather than some of it going towards the playing budget. We will need millions and millions of pounds for a new ground. 75k pa isn't going to touch the sides.

lo36789
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Re: New stadium funding

Post by lo36789 » Thu Mar 10, 2022 12:24 pm

I genuinley am not sure how people legitimately think we will 'own' our own ground, and we won't be renting from a stadium management company.

There may be capacity to take on extra risk and then sub-let but I just can't see this situation where we are gifted a multi-million pound asset.

Unless, unless it is part of the sweetener for a house builder or supermarket. Even then I am not sure why the council would choose to spend a multi million windfall on us when it has many more worthy causes - unless it can be shown to be the thing which can address a critical gap in social services.

Vodka_Vic
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Re: New stadium funding

Post by Vodka_Vic » Thu Mar 10, 2022 12:33 pm

DJ said at the Fans' Forum that it'll be paid back long term (over 50 years) with a bit of the profits each month going towards it.

lo36789
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Re: New stadium funding

Post by lo36789 » Thu Mar 10, 2022 12:37 pm

Fair enough - DJ knows his stuff in terms of capital assets and financing like. In my simple mind at £7million cost over 50 years you would need a £10-12k surplus per month just to pay 'debt'.

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Re: New stadium funding

Post by Yarblockos » Thu Mar 10, 2022 1:01 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Thu Mar 10, 2022 5:28 am
And there may be costs involved. FC United suffered relegation as a result of their ground given the cut in their playing budget to repay the finance.

If someone is found who is willing to develop a site and invest for a return they will ultimately charge the market rate for rent as they will be entitled to a return - so our costs could easily go up quite substantially to support this.

They would want to have it occupied 7 days a week in order so we may end up in a better ground but we would just be one of many tenants. This is the same way that York effectively hire out from the York Stadium Management Company but anyone can hire from then effectively.

That said we could take some of that risk and seek to effectively sub-let - so our costs go up but we can generate our own returns upon it - but the risk is ours if we don't.

The expected revenue generated on a 3G pitch is £200k per year over it's 10 year life (initial £600kish outlay). A guaranteed 90k adjusted for (inflation) would give a 50% ROI on that element of the ground - but with lower risk / cost to operate.

If we can operate in a cost effective manner there is £110k (minus our pitch hire time averaging 3 hours per week of 70 of possible usage) of revenue we could generate. That is why it is so critical we are located in an area where there is a lack of these facilities to make sure that return would be maximised - on that basis unlikely to be anywhere near existing hubs as they already provide similar facilities to that local community.

If you can then integrate local amenities within units in the structure of the stands you could potentially cover many needs as well and guarantee a demand - so if you can find an area that lacks local shops, pubs, restaurants, gym etc. relative to the population living there

Guess the comparison is the amenities linked to the Faverdale development eg. the school / pub and shops if there is a proper plan it can be integrated together and ultimately means the cost is split between the parts.

If this is part of planned development then it can all be housed in one structure which just happens to have football stands over the top of them.
Given that BM is only a mile from the Arena, would this suggest you'd have a better chance of meeting an unmet need with a stadium at Faverdale?

Darlobill
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Re: New stadium funding

Post by Darlobill » Thu Mar 10, 2022 1:06 pm

I’m sure I heard DJ say a 5k stadium with clubhouse and facilities would be approx around £5m.

lo36789
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Re: New stadium funding

Post by lo36789 » Thu Mar 10, 2022 1:15 pm

Yarblockos wrote:
Thu Mar 10, 2022 1:01 pm
Given that BM is only a mile from the Arena, would this suggest you'd have a better chance of meeting an unmet need with a stadium at Faverdale?
Arena is slightly different - it wasn't called out as a 'hub' was it?

I thought the hubs were Longfield (North), BM (South) and Eastbourne (East).

So I mean West Park seems like a fairly under serviced area when it comes to a sports hub based on pure geography. The only thing is the development at West Park was part of the last town plan.

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Re: New stadium funding

Post by Vodka_Vic » Thu Mar 10, 2022 6:12 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Thu Mar 10, 2022 12:37 pm
Fair enough - DJ knows his stuff in terms of capital assets and financing like. In my simple mind at £7million cost over 50 years you would need a £10-12k surplus per month just to pay 'debt'.
Yes. Something like that as a ballpark figure won't be too far off the mark.

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Re: New stadium funding

Post by shildonlad » Thu Mar 10, 2022 7:01 pm

I suppose the thing to look at is how other fan owned clubs have funded stadiums, most notably afc Wimbledon, ok darlo would not need one as big but still good they have got one built, wonder if that was a sweetener for redevelopment too
I may not live in the north east anymore but i still support the north east teams

lo36789
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Re: New stadium funding

Post by lo36789 » Thu Mar 10, 2022 7:17 pm

Vodka_Vic wrote:
Thu Mar 10, 2022 6:12 pm
lo36789 wrote:
Thu Mar 10, 2022 12:37 pm
Fair enough - DJ knows his stuff in terms of capital assets and financing like. In my simple mind at £7million cost over 50 years you would need a £10-12k surplus per month just to pay 'debt'.
Yes. Something like that as a ballpark figure won't be too far off the mark.
I suppose one thing though saying that. A 3G pitch can generate about £200k of revenue per year.

£60k back for the new one in 10 years time. Leaves £140k minus operational costs which you could probably allocate to debt repayment.

There is some potential in that.

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Re: New stadium funding

Post by shildonlad » Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:20 pm

Theres sure money to be made form renting out 3g pitches but they are costly to install and some clubs seem to think they are like double glazing and last forever and dont need maintenance, ive seen badly maintained 3g pitches and they are worse than a bad grass pitch
I may not live in the north east anymore but i still support the north east teams

lo36789
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Re: New stadium funding

Post by lo36789 » Thu Mar 10, 2022 10:05 pm

Yes £600k to install and last 10 years...

jjljks
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Re: New stadium funding

Post by jjljks » Sun Mar 13, 2022 7:37 am

Not a problem, folks. Just had a letter from the International FIFA World Cup Online Lottery telling me I have been selected as winner of £825,000. I was amazed as I had never even bought a ticket!
At least we are not like Chelsea, losing £3 million a week

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theoriginalfatcat
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Re: New stadium funding

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Sun Mar 13, 2022 9:14 am

shildonlad wrote:
Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:20 pm
Theres sure money to be made form renting out 3g pitches but they are costly to install and some clubs seem to think they are like double glazing and last forever and dont need maintenance, ive seen badly maintained 3g pitches and they are worse than a bad grass pitch
Grass is better environmentally too for obvious reasons.
A stopped clock is right twice a day.
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Quaker85
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Re: New stadium funding

Post by Quaker85 » Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:42 pm

My home town club Stockton may be looking for a new ground. Maybe we could ground share Image

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/tees ... l-23418144


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H1987
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Re: New stadium funding

Post by H1987 » Wed Apr 13, 2022 12:22 pm

Update on the prospect of new ground has been delayed a month due to ongoing discussions. What it will be is anyone's guess. If I had to have a go, developing an alternative pitch at Blackwell that has fewer issues with the bloody pipe and clubhouse. But it's pure guesswork. Anyone know anyone ITK?

onewayup
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Re: New stadium funding

Post by onewayup » Wed Apr 13, 2022 2:41 pm

Not this crap again some need to do a little research before posting.
1) we will not own our own ground until it's paid for.
2)we are only able to get to this stage of present discussion because of grants funding from several areas which have,or are being sourced by the club.
People are jumping on here without any forethought as to how their posts could potentially scupper all the hard work already done by those that know what is what. It will happen it takes time. 👍

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Spyman
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Re: New stadium funding

Post by Spyman » Wed Apr 13, 2022 2:52 pm

"BTB hasn't exactly set the world alight"

You think we'd be challenging for the playoffs without it? Maybe we would, but the less we, as fans, are willing to contribute to the playing budget, the less chance of a competitive squad and the less right we have to whinge if we're struggling for results. BTB has been a great success for several years now - it's not a guarantee that every player signed will set the world alight but it has a huge impact and really reflects well on us as a fan-financed club.

This is our club and our responsibility - I trust Johnston and the Board to put together the most realistic options for us in terms of how we might fund any potential new ground but if a new ground is what we want or need and it is to come at the expense of BTB then we need to accept there will be compromises on the pitch.
On Sunday April 29, 2012 at 10:25 pm, Darlo Cockney wrote:Sadly some people have nothing better to do that invent rumours.

We will be playing at the arena again next season - fact.

Quakerz - if you actually attended games and spoke to people you might actually find our facts, rather than spreading s*** on this board.

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