The Top 12, Monday April 18th 2022

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lo36789
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Re: The Top 12, Monday April 18th 2022

Post by lo36789 » Wed Apr 27, 2022 5:54 am

Darlogramps wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:13 pm
Staggering that they’ve not gone up given the resources at their disposal in that division.
To be fair to them they were absolutely destroyed by the COVID curtailment a couple of seasons ago.

Then when they have come back Buxton have decided to throw an 'alleged' £12k a week playing budget at promotion.

Darlo_Pete
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Re: The Top 12, Monday April 18th 2022

Post by Darlo_Pete » Wed Apr 27, 2022 7:13 am

I think it is good for us that South Shields haven't got promoted, as I think they would have provided fierce competition for local players in the North East, as they could provide better wages for players than us. On the downside, a localish derby would have been good for finances and fans alike. I'd love Scarborough to get promoted.

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Re: The Top 12, Monday April 18th 2022

Post by biccynana » Wed Apr 27, 2022 7:24 am

Darlo_Pete wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 7:13 am
I think it is good for us that South Shields haven't got promoted, as I think they would have provided fierce competition for local players in the North East, as they could provide better wages for players than us. On the downside, a localish derby would have been good for finances and fans alike. I'd love Scarborough to get promoted.
Dunno, Pete. I think the extra localish derby outweighs the downsides as Shields are already able to compete for local players anyway, given the 'vibes' on offer.

Darlogramps
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The Top 12, Monday April 18th 2022

Post by Darlogramps » Wed Apr 27, 2022 7:37 am

lo36789 wrote:
Darlogramps wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:13 pm
Staggering that they’ve not gone up given the resources at their disposal in that division.
To be fair to them they were absolutely destroyed by the COVID curtailment a couple of seasons ago.

Then when they have come back Buxton have decided to throw an 'alleged' £12k a week playing budget at promotion.
Being a full time club in the NPL who brought in a high profile figure in Kevin Phillips as manager, South Shields clearly struggled financially this season….
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darlo2001uk
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Re: The Top 12, Monday April 18th 2022

Post by darlo2001uk » Wed Apr 27, 2022 8:21 am

Quaker85 wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 8:26 pm
Alfreton have never looked back since we missed those pens. We’ve done the opposite unfortunately.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Interesting to see what they would do if they make the play-offs and win. They had a vote just before we played them to decide whether they should apply for relegation from NLN due to financial reasons. The vote was to stay in the NLN, but the feedback was mixed.

lo36789
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Re: The Top 12, Monday April 18th 2022

Post by lo36789 » Wed Apr 27, 2022 7:59 pm

Darlogramps wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 7:37 am
lo36789 wrote:
Darlogramps wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:13 pm
Staggering that they’ve not gone up given the resources at their disposal in that division.
To be fair to them they were absolutely destroyed by the COVID curtailment a couple of seasons ago.

Then when they have come back Buxton have decided to throw an 'alleged' £12k a week playing budget at promotion.
Being a full time club in the NPL who brought in a high profile figure in Kevin Phillips as manager, South Shields clearly struggled financially this season….
Oh they are financial heavyweights but I just don't know if it is staggering that they finished second behind who they did.

If there is another team financially doped it is going to generally boil down to the games against each other.

You can only take a maximum of 6 points from the other teams twice whether your budget is 3x or 5x as big as the norm.

Darlogramps
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The Top 12, Monday April 18th 2022

Post by Darlogramps » Wed Apr 27, 2022 10:18 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Oh they are financial heavyweights but I just don't know if it is staggering that they finished second behind who they did .
I don’t agree. If I take your word that Buxton spend a lot, it doesn’t change the fact they’re part-time. Also, are you assuming that Buxton’s budget is larger than S.Shields’?

I don’t claim to know either club’s budget, but it logically follows that South Shields, as a full-time club, have a significant advantage. And we know their full-time budget will be substantial for the NPL. Moreover they hired a big name manager with experience of coaching in the Premier League (with a whole host of contacts etc).

Realistically, it shouldn’t have been close and Shields should have won the league comfortably. Full-time beats part-time if managed properly.

Also, you mis-quoted me. I didn’t say it was “staggering they finished behind Buxton”. I said it was staggering they didn’t get promotion. In a one-off game that goes to extra time, there’s no excuse for a full-time S.Shields to lose to a part-time Warrington.

lo36789 wrote:
If there is another team financially doped it is going to generally boil down to the games against each other.

You can only take a maximum of 6 points from the other teams twice whether your budget is 3x or 5x as big as the norm.
Actually, with the greatest respect, in the instance of South Shields (which is what we’re talking about), this is complete bollocks.

Let’s look at the teams S.Shields dropped points against from March onwards:

Ashton United - 15th
Stafford - 8th
Basford - 20th
Lancaster - 11th
Gainsborough - 20th
Whitby - 7th
Grantham - 22nd and relegated

They were consistently dropping points left, right and centre against considerably weaker and lesser-resourced teams.

It wasn’t as if they were going toe-to-toe with Buxton, in the way Man City and Liverpool are.
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lo36789
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Re: The Top 12, Monday April 18th 2022

Post by lo36789 » Thu Apr 28, 2022 5:53 am

All teams have the capacity to lose one off fixtures. I'm talking principally if there are two that are above the competition like an SPL type situation they can only take 3 points from any one game. Not a fixture by fixture analysis.

The National League Prem is a similar two horse race between Stockport and Wrexham they will each win and lose a similar amount of game against other teams, that is down to football being a sport played by human beings.

In a one off playoff game anything can happen. They fell short on a penalty shootout at the end of the day, and of course there are excuses otherwise what hope is there for the FA Cup if the teams in higher division should just have to turn up to win.

Buxton's budget would allow them to pay full time equivalent wages and they have full time Sean Newton on loan from York. Ash Chambers, Josh Granite and Diego De Girolamo moved from professional clubs to Buxton.

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The Top 12, Monday April 18th 2022

Post by Darlogramps » Thu Apr 28, 2022 8:20 am

lo36789 wrote:All teams have the capacity to lose one off fixtures. I'm talking principally if there are two that are above the competition like an SPL type situation they can only take 3 points from any one game. Not a fixture by fixture analysis. .
With respect, you’re trying to shift the goalposts to cover the fact you didn’t do your research. The discussion we were having was about South Shields. The point you disagreed with me about was whether or not S.Shields should have gone up this season.

South Shields didn’t lose a one-off game in the league. They dropped points in seven matches in the final six weeks of the season. Against seven clubs they have vastly superior resources to. This is inexcusable for a full time club with, most likely, the biggest budget in the league.

Please don’t insult my intelligence by now pretending you were talking generally. You weren’t. The context of the discussion was South Shields and Buxton and that’s clearly what we were referring to.

I can’t have a sensible conversation with you if you’re going to argue in bad faith by not admitting your mistakes and trying to shift the goalposts.
lo36789 wrote: In a one off playoff game anything can happen. They fell short on a penalty shootout at the end of the day, and of course there are excuses otherwise what hope is there for the FA Cup if the teams in higher division should just have to turn up to win. .
If Manchester United are knocked out by an EFL club, that is embarrassing for Manchester United. In the same way full-time South Shields failing to beat Warrington is embarrassing for them.
lo36789 wrote: Buxton's budget would allow them to pay full time equivalent wages and they have full time Sean Newton on loan from York. Ash Chambers, Josh Granite and Diego De Girolamo moved from professional clubs to Buxton. .
And South Shields’ squad was full time, so what’s your point?

Yes Buxton spent a lot of money, but it’s a very reasonable assumption South Shields had an even bigger one given their squad was full time.

Particularly when they appoint a high profile figure who has been on the coaching staff of Premier League clubs and should have fantastic contacts across the board, both in the North East and further afield.

I’m sorry but I can’t see any financial or footballing metric that puts Buxton ahead of South Shields. South Shields should have won the title this season.
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lo36789
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Re: The Top 12, Monday April 18th 2022

Post by lo36789 » Thu Apr 28, 2022 9:25 am

Well no coz I am not that invested to do a deep dive and research the individual fixtures and result of Buxton and South Shields.

Of course it's a generalisation that is what 95% of opinions are here.

I can see one metric which put Buxton ahead. They got 81 points and South Shields got 78 - and you know what that is probably the one that mattered.

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Re: The Top 12, Monday April 18th 2022

Post by H1987 » Thu Apr 28, 2022 9:43 am

I think it's generally a reasonable point that you'd expect South Shields to go up. Not just because of their budget but because they'd almost certainly have gone up in the prior year curtailed by covid. They changed their manager for a big name and made a mess of things. While Buxton certainly deserved it, South Shields effectively had a significant head start and blew it.

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The Top 12, Monday April 18th 2022

Post by Darlogramps » Thu Apr 28, 2022 10:34 am

Oh for goodness sake. “Deep dive” - You’re making it sound like a four-year research project. It takes two minutes to look at South Shields’ results to inform yourself.

South Shields missed out on the title because they dropped too many points at considerably weaker sides with less resources. It wasn’t because of your theory about the title being decided by the results of two contenders against each other.

As for points total, stop playing dumb and being sarcastic. You know fine well the point I’m making. Because of their financial superiority to Buxton, and the fact their squad is full time, there was no reason for them to finish below Buxton.

You know this but are resorting to ill-tempered sarcasm because you can’t disprove what I’m saying.
Last edited by Darlogramps on Thu Apr 28, 2022 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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lo36789
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Re: The Top 12, Monday April 18th 2022

Post by lo36789 » Thu Apr 28, 2022 10:35 am

H1987 wrote:
Thu Apr 28, 2022 9:43 am
I think it's generally a reasonable point that you'd expect South Shields to go up. Not just because of their budget but because they'd almost certainly have gone up in the prior year curtailed by covid. They changed their manager for a big name and made a mess of things. While Buxton certainly deserved it, South Shields effectively had a significant head start and blew it.
I think they were second when they gave Phillips the job. That is from memory by the way, which is why I say I think.

I am sure darlogramps will do the research on the historic table at the point of the decision for us.

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