Raj Singh

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Makka Pakka
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Re: Raj Singh

Post by Makka Pakka » Wed Apr 27, 2022 7:59 am

If we were liquidated, what the f**k were we doing paying players that were owed from 2011/12 and also having Phil Gray as a contracted professional at the start of 2012/13?
The only debts that Darlington FC didn't settle were to Raj Singh and for exiting administration without satisfying all creditors the FA got their cane out and gave us a damn good thrashing.
"At a meeting held at the Grammar School on Friday last - Mr Phillip Wood M.A., in the chair - it was resolved to form an Association Football Club for Darlington and neighbourhood. The opinions of those present were so unanimous as to the desirability of this step, that a committee was formed to complete the organisation of the club, and Mr Craven, 17, Garden Street, was appointed secretary pro tem." - The Northern Echo, Monday 23rd July 1883

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theoriginalfatcat
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Re: Raj Singh

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Wed Apr 27, 2022 8:04 am

I reckon there’s more to this Golden Share thing than meets the eye, to me it’s never been explained properly.

For instance, I was told by a solicitor lately that holding the deeds to your house isn’t the big thing it once was. They’re not that important anymore as it’s what’s written on government records that’s the main thing, ie, if you do not hold your house deeds you can still legally prove ownership of your house.

As Ed alludes to above, the whole saga could be a red herring. It would be interesting if a journalist type person did some research into this Golden Share story.
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biccynana
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Re: Raj Singh

Post by biccynana » Wed Apr 27, 2022 8:05 am

Makka Pakka wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 7:59 am
If we were liquidated, what the f**k were we doing paying players that were owed from 2011/12 and also having Phil Gray as a contracted professional at the start of 2012/13?
The only debts that Darlington FC didn't settle were to Raj Singh and for exiting administration without satisfying all creditors the FA got their cane out and gave us a damn good thrashing.
Couldn't ask for a more succinct explanation of why the whole 'liquidated'/'phoenix club'/'went bust' narrative is complete bull.

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Re: Raj Singh

Post by lo36789 » Wed Apr 27, 2022 8:51 am

theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 8:04 am
I reckon there’s more to this Golden Share thing than meets the eye, to me it’s never been explained properly.

For instance, I was told by a solicitor lately that holding the deeds to your house isn’t the big thing it once was. They’re not that important anymore as it’s what’s written on government records that’s the main thing, ie, if you do not hold your house deeds you can still legally prove ownership of your house.

As Ed alludes to above, the whole saga could be a red herring. It would be interesting if a journalist type person did some research into this Golden Share story.
So there are a couple of bits and I am not sure which is relevant.

Every single year clubs are provided a license to play in the National League System. This license is either given to a company or can be given to a nominated individual.

This is the clubs license to play in the National League System. They are renewed each year but in buying a club you would need to purchase that license to play as that club.

Separate to that. All leagues are actually just collectives of clubs they are private companies in legal terms the football league is owned by the clubs they each have a share in the company.

When you are relegated your share is passed to the teams promoted. That is the same in the National League as that is was actually drives the voting rights of the clubs is their ownership of the organisation.

Again that share is an asset which can be legally owned. As far as I am aware this is again either by the company or a nominated individual.

spen666
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Re: Raj Singh

Post by spen666 » Wed Apr 27, 2022 11:00 am

lo36789 wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 8:51 am
theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 8:04 am
I reckon there’s more to this Golden Share thing than meets the eye, to me it’s never been explained properly.

For instance, I was told by a solicitor lately that holding the deeds to your house isn’t the big thing it once was. They’re not that important anymore as it’s what’s written on government records that’s the main thing, ie, if you do not hold your house deeds you can still legally prove ownership of your house.

As Ed alludes to above, the whole saga could be a red herring. It would be interesting if a journalist type person did some research into this Golden Share story.
So there are a couple of bits and I am not sure which is relevant.

Every single year clubs are provided a license to play in the National League System. This license is either given to a company or can be given to a nominated individual.

This is the clubs license to play in the National League System. They are renewed each year but in buying a club you would need to purchase that license to play as that club.

Separate to that. All leagues are actually just collectives of clubs they are private companies in legal terms the football league is owned by the clubs they each have a share in the company.

When you are relegated your share is passed to the teams promoted. That is the same in the National League as that is was actually drives the voting rights of the clubs is their ownership of the organisation.

Again that share is an asset which can be legally owned. As far as I am aware this is again either by the company or a nominated individual.



As I see things, the victims of the events were the fans who raised the sum of money to buy the football club from the administrators. They were let down by somebody. It is not clear exactly who did what or what happened to the football share.

There is reference to the physical possession of title deeds to a property not being important as what is on the Land Registry trumps that. That is the case for Registered Land. With the football share, the FA / Leagues will not get involved in a dispute over who owns the football share as this could in situations leave them open to being sued if they decide X rather than Y is owner of football share. Look at the litigation over ownership of Sheffield United where 2 parties claimed they owned the club. If the FA / League had come down on one side, the other would sue them.
Because the club did not have the football share, the FA applied its rules and treated Darlington as a new club.

So what happened?

Raj Singh - He had a duty to turn ALL assets of the failed company over to the administrators. If he retained assets ie the football share, then he is potentially guilty of a criminal offence ( think Boris Becker – albeit that was a bankruptcy situation)

Administrator - Either the Administrator did get the football share from Singh ( and did not provide it to the purchasers) or , more likely He did not get the share from Singh, in which case, he should have followed up on this and demanded it of Singh. I am speculating here, but suspect he may have not appreciated the significance of the football share at this stage.

The Purchasing Group of Fans / Solicitors acting for them – What did the contract for the sale/ purchase specify was included in the sale ? A bit like a house purchase, you have list of fixtures & fittings. If the football share was not included in this contract, then either or both the solicitors/ purchasing group were negligent.

If the football share was included in the contract, then the administrator breached the contract by not handing it over.

Its probably too long ago now for any civil litigation over what happened owing to statue of limitations limiting claims to usually 6 years.

Whoever is to blame, the fans who raised the money were the victims as they were let down and or ripped off by someone, or even all of those I named above.

If the football share was included in the purchase of the football club, then Darlington should have started the 2012/2013 in National League North. The question then would have been where they would have played, because apart from The Arena the nearest ground with a suitable grading would have been either Middlesbrough or Gateshead

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Re: Raj Singh

Post by shildonlad » Wed Apr 27, 2022 11:41 am

spen666 wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 11:00 am
lo36789 wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 8:51 am
theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 8:04 am
I reckon there’s more to this Golden Share thing than meets the eye, to me it’s never been explained properly.

For instance, I was told by a solicitor lately that holding the deeds to your house isn’t the big thing it once was. They’re not that important anymore as it’s what’s written on government records that’s the main thing, ie, if you do not hold your house deeds you can still legally prove ownership of your house.

As Ed alludes to above, the whole saga could be a red herring. It would be interesting if a journalist type person did some research into this Golden Share story.
So there are a couple of bits and I am not sure which is relevant.

Every single year clubs are provided a license to play in the National League System. This license is either given to a company or can be given to a nominated individual.

This is the clubs license to play in the National League System. They are renewed each year but in buying a club you would need to purchase that license to play as that club.

Separate to that. All leagues are actually just collectives of clubs they are private companies in legal terms the football league is owned by the clubs they each have a share in the company.

When you are relegated your share is passed to the teams promoted. That is the same in the National League as that is was actually drives the voting rights of the clubs is their ownership of the organisation.

Again that share is an asset which can be legally owned. As far as I am aware this is again either by the company or a nominated individual.



As I see things, the victims of the events were the fans who raised the sum of money to buy the football club from the administrators. They were let down by somebody. It is not clear exactly who did what or what happened to the football share.

There is reference to the physical possession of title deeds to a property not being important as what is on the Land Registry trumps that. That is the case for Registered Land. With the football share, the FA / Leagues will not get involved in a dispute over who owns the football share as this could in situations leave them open to being sued if they decide X rather than Y is owner of football share. Look at the litigation over ownership of Sheffield United where 2 parties claimed they owned the club. If the FA / League had come down on one side, the other would sue them.
Because the club did not have the football share, the FA applied its rules and treated Darlington as a new club.

So what happened?

Raj Singh - He had a duty to turn ALL assets of the failed company over to the administrators. If he retained assets ie the football share, then he is potentially guilty of a criminal offence ( think Boris Becker – albeit that was a bankruptcy situation)

Administrator - Either the Administrator did get the football share from Singh ( and did not provide it to the purchasers) or , more likely He did not get the share from Singh, in which case, he should have followed up on this and demanded it of Singh. I am speculating here, but suspect he may have not appreciated the significance of the football share at this stage.

The Purchasing Group of Fans / Solicitors acting for them – What did the contract for the sale/ purchase specify was included in the sale ? A bit like a house purchase, you have list of fixtures & fittings. If the football share was not included in this contract, then either or both the solicitors/ purchasing group were negligent.

If the football share was included in the contract, then the administrator breached the contract by not handing it over.

Its probably too long ago now for any civil litigation over what happened owing to statue of limitations limiting claims to usually 6 years.

Whoever is to blame, the fans who raised the money were the victims as they were let down and or ripped off by someone, or even all of those I named above.

If the football share was included in the purchase of the football club, then Darlington should have started the 2012/2013 in National League North. The question then would have been where they would have played, because apart from The Arena the nearest ground with a suitable grading would have been either Middlesbrough or Gateshead
Good summary, whilst everyone likes to blame singh sure seems more to it and even if darlington did get that share they could have been demoted anyway due to playing at bishop as the grounds of suitable grading at the time would not have really been viable options
I may not live in the north east anymore but i still support the north east teams

spen666
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Re: Raj Singh

Post by spen666 » Wed Apr 27, 2022 11:55 am

shildonlad wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 11:41 am
....
Good summary, whilst everyone likes to blame singh sure seems more to it and even if darlington did get that share they could have been demoted anyway due to playing at bishop as the grounds of suitable grading at the time would not have really been viable options
I am pretty sure Singh for whatever reason did not hand over the football share ( he seems to admit this). That however does not excuse the Administrator, the purchasing group & solicitors for failing to ensure football share was purchased.

The sad thing is the losers were the fans who paid for the club and never got the most important item.

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Re: Raj Singh

Post by shildonlad » Wed Apr 27, 2022 12:39 pm

spen666 wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 11:55 am
shildonlad wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 11:41 am
....
Good summary, whilst everyone likes to blame singh sure seems more to it and even if darlington did get that share they could have been demoted anyway due to playing at bishop as the grounds of suitable grading at the time would not have really been viable options
I am pretty sure Singh for whatever reason did not hand over the football share ( he seems to admit this). That however does not excuse the Administrator, the purchasing group & solicitors for failing to ensure football share was purchased.

The sad thing is the losers were the fans who paid for the club and never got the most important item.
Thats the thing, with no football share and ground what exactly was purchased from the administrators but a load of debt
I may not live in the north east anymore but i still support the north east teams

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Re: Raj Singh

Post by loan_star » Wed Apr 27, 2022 1:05 pm

shildonlad wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 5:35 am
Whether the club is the same club or not is a debatable matter. If the football share was transferred over to the new owners then the club would have continued in conference north. Normally when a club is bought the football share is transfered to new owners, if singh never transfered it then he was comitting fraud or was it a very big blunder by the new owners that it never got tranfered over due to the haste of the purchase. Without getting the football share for whatever reason the club may has well been liquidated as the new club would have ended up in the northern league anyway and had no debts
Wrong, even if we had got the share we wouldnt have been in the conference north as we had come out of administration without a CVA meaning that the conference would not let us compete in their leagues, we would have been Evostik Premier at best.

lo36789
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Re: Raj Singh

Post by lo36789 » Wed Apr 27, 2022 3:18 pm

Surely the problem was the administrator could only handle things which were technically an asset of the club and not an asset of a named person who happened to have previously been the majority shareholder of the club. I don't know that legally if the asset was in his name he has broken the law by not signing it over as a creditor he didn't need to approve the sale of the assets that was the job of the administrator.

I thought the whole thing was the promise was there to sign it over on completion of the sale of the assets and that promise was effectively not forthcoming.

Irrespective of perceived errors the fact that the FA let the license to play be an asset that is detachable from the 'club' is surely what is questionable.

The reality is there should be a default that the license to play / share cannot be possessed by someone who is not a controlling owner of the club - if there is a transfer of ownership (eg. to an administrator) the share will automatically be transferred or will be reissued in the name of the new controlling party.

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Re: Raj Singh

Post by LoidLucan » Thu May 05, 2022 5:35 pm

Ruthless by Singh to sack Lee before the final game after they consolidated in the league, got to 4th round of the FA Cup and semi final of Papa Johns. Just 5 months as manager there. Also comes just days after a fundraising match there for the manager's wife's battle against a brain tumour. Great timing by Mr Sensitive.

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Re: Raj Singh

Post by shildonlad » Thu May 05, 2022 6:28 pm

LoidLucan wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 5:35 pm
Ruthless by Singh to sack Lee before the final game after they consolidated in the league, got to 4th round of the FA Cup and semi final of Papa Johns. Just 5 months as manager there. Also comes just days after a fundraising match there for the manager's wife's battle against a brain tumour. Great timing by Mr Sensitive.
Could come back to bite them on the arce next season, blokes barely been given any time, what do they expect its there first season in league 2
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Re: Raj Singh

Post by tdk1 » Thu May 05, 2022 6:46 pm

I think it's a real shame, as lee was clearly going to take them down next year

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Re: Raj Singh

Post by QUAKERMAN2 » Thu May 05, 2022 6:59 pm

LoidLucan wrote:Ruthless by Singh to sack Lee before the final game after they consolidated in the league, got to 4th round of the FA Cup and semi final of Papa Johns. Just 5 months as manager there. Also comes just days after a fundraising match there for the manager's wife's battle against a brain tumour. Great timing by Mr Sensitive.
What potential manager would want to work under Singh, Challinor obviously saw the light and opted for Stockport,one league below.Lee seemed to be doing quite well so this seems very harsh on him but no surprise given Singh's track record with managers.Thought leaving Boro for Poolies was a big risk but not to be given more time is plain crazy.

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Re: Raj Singh

Post by shildonlad » Thu May 05, 2022 7:32 pm

QUAKERMAN2 wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 6:59 pm
LoidLucan wrote:Ruthless by Singh to sack Lee before the final game after they consolidated in the league, got to 4th round of the FA Cup and semi final of Papa Johns. Just 5 months as manager there. Also comes just days after a fundraising match there for the manager's wife's battle against a brain tumour. Great timing by Mr Sensitive.
What potential manager would want to work under Singh, Challinor obviously saw the light and opted for Stockport,one league below.Lee seemed to be doing quite well so this seems very harsh on him but no surprise given Singh's track record with managers.Thought leaving Boro for Poolies was a big risk but not to be given more time is plain crazy.

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Exactly. Hardly him that built the team was it. With sings rep can they really get any better. No wonder guys stick with reserves/academies like craig liddle has
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Re: Raj Singh

Post by Darlogramps » Thu May 05, 2022 7:54 pm

QUAKERMAN2 wrote:
LoidLucan wrote:Ruthless by Singh to sack Lee before the final game after they consolidated in the league, got to 4th round of the FA Cup and semi final of Papa Johns. Just 5 months as manager there. Also comes just days after a fundraising match there for the manager's wife's battle against a brain tumour. Great timing by Mr Sensitive.
What potential manager would want to work under Singh, Challinor obviously saw the light and opted for Stockport,one league below.Lee seemed to be doing quite well so this seems very harsh on him but no surprise given Singh's track record with managers.Thought leaving Boro for Poolies was a big risk but not to be given more time is plain crazy.

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1 win in 11 and eight games without victory at the end of the season wouldn’t indicate a manager doing well.

Singh pays the bills ultimately. If he doesn’t think Lee is up to it, he’s entitled to get rid. Why stick with a failing manager if you don’t think he’s good enough? You can’t keep someone out of embarrassment.

Although I would say sacking a manager after five months would indicate either a problem behind the scenes, or a problem in the recruitment process.
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theoriginalfatcat
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Re: Raj Singh

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Thu May 05, 2022 9:02 pm

Singh's maybe got someone lined up.
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Re: Raj Singh

Post by Darlo_Pete » Thu May 05, 2022 10:19 pm

Terrible timing after the fundraising game last weekend for Lee's wife.

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Re: Raj Singh

Post by shildonlad » Fri May 06, 2022 5:04 am

What more bizare is why sack him 2 days before final game and keep his backroom staff. Backroom staff brought in by a manager are normally let go too
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Re: Raj Singh

Post by jjljks » Fri May 06, 2022 5:47 am

Darlo_Pete wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 10:19 pm
Terrible timing after the fundraising game last weekend for Lee's wife.
Surely Raj is driving a wedge between himself & the fans who were good enough to support Lee's family? Disgraceful & makes you wonder how much care you would get in Raj's care homes.

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Re: Raj Singh

Post by Lawman3 » Fri May 06, 2022 6:53 am

I just read the BBC article and have learned that Victoria Park is now known as the Suit Direct Stadium.

I haven't stopped laughing yet.
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theoriginalfatcat
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Re: Raj Singh

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Fri May 06, 2022 7:03 am

“Suits you sir, ooh” :D
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Re: Raj Singh

Post by OYD » Fri May 06, 2022 12:57 pm

Darlo_Pete wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 10:19 pm
Terrible timing after the fundraising game last weekend for Lee's wife.
No Pete, terrible timing would have been before the fundraising game.

Or are you suggesting that any manager with family concerns should never get sacked?

Have a look at the earlier replies by TDK1 and Darlogramps, who seem to have a better grasp of the situation, and you might realise that there was never going to be a good time.

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Re: Raj Singh

Post by LoidLucan » Fri May 06, 2022 4:51 pm

Hopefully Singh will make a complete pig's ear of finding a replacement. When the new man is appointed that will be the 8th different person to occupy the hotseat since 2018.
Last edited by LoidLucan on Fri May 06, 2022 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Raj Singh

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Fri May 06, 2022 5:27 pm

M.G. ;)
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Re: Raj Singh

Post by darlo reborn » Fri May 06, 2022 6:53 pm

Let`s hope so MG loves managing in the lower leagues LOL!

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Re: Raj Singh

Post by quakersfan » Fri May 06, 2022 7:30 pm

To me Houchen was a much worse chairman and Scott & Sizer were equally just as bad all about the money not the club.

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Re: Raj Singh

Post by AndyPark » Fri May 06, 2022 7:34 pm

quakersfan wrote:
Fri May 06, 2022 7:30 pm
To me Houchen was a much worse chairman and Scott & Sizer were equally just as bad all about the money not the club.
Houchen? :eh:

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Re: Raj Singh

Post by lo36789 » Sat May 07, 2022 10:31 am

Wait until he remembers who Houghton's partner in crime was...

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Re: Raj Singh

Post by MikeinBlack2 » Sat May 07, 2022 11:24 am

I was speaking to a Hartlepool fan yesterday and he said that he would have beed sacked before the fundraising game, but all the detail for that game were in hand so they held off until now.
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